I need some pointers.

[gardenofsound]

I just got myself a job that should get me a good $3000 to invest in a P.A. (I'm 15, and I'm building a couple of websites for this guy I know).

Here's what I have now:
2 JBL SF-15 (Full range, 2-way enclosure... 250 @ 8 ohms)
1 QSC RMX-850 (200 Wx2 @ 8 ohms stereo, 600 W @ 8 ohms bridge)

Here's what I need (want). The total cost of all of the new equipment can't exceed $3000:

1 good, 12 or 16 channel, 4 bus, stereo mixer.

1 Crown XLS-402 (260x2 @8 ohms... this unit will power the JBL speakers I already have, as the QSC is not powerful enough, and has already done a job on one of the JBL's horns)

2 FOH speakers (I want 600 W or more... Carvin's products look like the best quality for price speakers, and they are upgrading their powered speakers line).

1 700x2 or more @ 4ohms power amp (if I buy unpowered speakers)

All the necessary signal processing equipment needed.

Here's how the setup is probably going to work:

The Crown XLS-402 will power the two JBL speakers I already have, and these will be the stage monitors.

So far, I've found deals as follows:

Option 1:
Crown XLS-402 (new): $274 (including tax... at the local store).

2 Carvin 2x15 800 W @ 4 ohms Loudspeakers (new... each enclosure features two 15 inch drivers, two eight inch drivers, and a horn): $660 each (including shipping).

Peavey PV2600 (900Wx2@4 ohms): $600 (free shipping)

That comes out to $2194... leaving me $806 for signal processing and a mixer.

Option 2:
Crown XLS-402 (same deal as above)

Carvin 2x15 600 W POWERED speakers (the enclosures are idential in appearance to the unpowered Carvins I mentioned earlier): $860 each (including shipping)

This leaves $1006 for the mixer and sig processing.


Suggestions on how to go about this?

[Stimson96]

Mackie CFX series are nice live mixers with built in FXs. You can only run one at a time but they are high quality and can still be used when you spend the bug $$ on external FXs. I'm not sold on powered speakers just because what you buy now will limit them later. I'm real happy with EV eliminator ii series front cabs. They are 2-15s and a horn and are rated pretty well. I also just bought a couple Mackie power amps on E-bay and that worked great.

[cactusjim]

Stimson is right. I have a CFX series mixer, and it does a great job. But if you really want to rock their world, consider assembling a tri-amp system. This can be done by adding one power amp and a crossover. One side of the power amp would drive highs, the other side would drive lo/mids, and reserve one amp for subs. This would give you a mono tri-amp system. As far as which brand to go with, check out the Behringer line. It's really good stuff at reasonable prices.

It's my own personal bias, but I would stay away from the Carvin stuff. Yes, it's a neat company and they have good prices, but to my ear it doesn't sound that good. Also, I don't know where you live, but service can be a major issue. Start looking for the best you can afford (read: bulletproof). If it means you have to settle for a smaller system than you're dreaming of, you will still come out ahead if it's not breaking down all the time. And like Stimson suggested, you might want to consider getting some used pro gear that someone has outgrown.

One more thing: the most important piece of gear you have is your pair of ears. Use them to tell you what sounds good, and jealously guard them from damage.

Smiles,
Jim

[Jeff Goldberg]

Hi gardenofsound!

You've got a Private Message. Check your inbox.

Regards,
Jeff Goldberg

[cmchamp]

He's got one from me too from a few days ago!
Cory

[WillyT]

I cringe, whine, cry, complain, and sometimes just refuse whenever someone tries to force me to use a Mackie mixer.

Listen to the Allen & Heath stuff. I think you would like the MixWiz. There are several configs available.

I prefer my mixer to be transparant. Every Mackie I've tried seems to color the sound(sort of like talking when your head is stuffed up)

You won't hear much if any difference between 200W and 260W. As these are 250W (1000w peak) speakers most people recommend an amp 2-4 times the power. As you have discovered a too small amp pushed hard can fry your drivers. BUT if you go the higher power route DO NOT PUSH THE AMP INTO CLIPPING you will just fry things quicker.

My recommendation for a amp would be the Yamaha CP2000.(I like the old QSC USA series also. These things are tanks.) I have some Carvin DCM2000 amps and the limiters are GREAT, but one is down and out of warranty now (a low level hum in one channel. Useable in a dire emergency only)

I'm in agreement with Jim on the triamp thing. (And your ears. I wear hearing protection religiously in the factory) I use the CX-2300. I have 5 of these (but one is down and out of warranty. Blows fuses) Use 2 for mains, stereo 3-way; 1 for electronic drum monitors; 1 spare.

[gardenofsound]

I have a question about tri-amping.

I know where to buy subwoofers, but what would I use for the midrange section, and lastly, where am I supposed to find high frequency horns that fit this purpose?

[WillyT]

gardenofsound

The Carvin speaker you selected, the 1588 I believe, is bi-ampable already. The 600Hz suggested crossover freq suggests that the split is between the 15" and 8" speakers. The sensitivity spec looks good for these.

A lot of us oldtimers at one time or another bought (or built) cabinets and installed our own drivers, completely rewiring the things for bi or tri amp setups.

Like my Sonic cabs where I threw out the original speakers and horn driver, disconnected the super-tweeter, and installed E-120's and selenium drivers straight to the jacks and added a speakon 8-pole.

Most of the high end PRO stuff is already set up for this. Check out McCauley and EAW for instance.

[flattop100]

Sorry for the late post, but I haven't been on in a while.

Someone recommended Behringer amps. I would stay away. The price is always extremely tempting, but I'm willing to bet my college loan that you'd regret it later.

[gardenofsound]

Originally posted by flattop100
Sorry for the late post, but I haven't been on in a while.

Someone recommended Behringer amps. I would stay away. The price is always extremely tempting, but I'm willing to bet my college loan that you'd regret it later.

]

Some sound people I know around here have said that on a lot of fronts, Behringer is a much improved company. When's the last time you used their equipment?

[cactusjim]

While it's true that I haven't had a lot of personal experience with Behringer amps, they are reputed in the industry to have a 1% failure rate. Compare that to the 5 Mackie power amps I've had, 3 of which have gone down (one is currently in the shop for the 2nd time).

Curiously, I also have 4 SR450's and a pair of SR1500 subs (all powered cabs) which have given me nothing but stellar performance for the past two and-a-half years. Go figure.

As for Mackie mixers not being transparent, I guess that's true enough, but virtually every mixer (in Garden's stated price range) has a color to some degree. It's just my opinion that Garden would be better served spending his money on a used Mackie (or an A&H) than buying a new Carvin, if only for the repair factor. I know I'll probably have a bunch of Carvin afficianados leap to their defense, but please believe me, I have nothing against the company, I just have my own opinions based on my experiences.

Viva la difference!

Jim

[gardenofsound]

Thanks Jim.


Willy, I have a question (since you seem to have some experience with this):

Do you have any references on books/resources in the event that I build myself a speaker system? I know a little bit about speakers and stuff, but the more advanced stuff (the wiring... the calculations for how big the speaker cabinets should be, etc.) are the types of stuff I don't know. When you were still a newbie, how did you learn how to do this stuff?

I've always wanted to build myself a speaker system (as I've always wanted to build my own guitar... I guess it's the tinkerer in me!). Any advice from people with experience on building speaker systems would be greatly appreciated.

I would want to build myself (per side) one enclosure for lows (15 in.), one enclosure for mids (8 inch?), and one with a HF horn. If I need to, I would also be willing to build myself an extra 15 in. enclosure per side.

[WillyT]

gardenofsound

I was in high school and a friends grandfather owned a factory where we had the run of the place on weekends.

We built this 2 x 18" horn enclosure. Followed all the rules for internal volume and the slope of the horn.(A segment of a circle with a radius if around 8 to 10 feet) The "Thing" weighed over 500 pounds.

So we cut it in half. It sounded awful. We never used it.

We measured some Sunn PA cabs and built some of them. I put Eminence 15's in these and used 4 of them with Altec horns and drivers for about 10 years.

My friend went into business selling to local musicians. Built about 100 4 x 12 cabs with pontoon deck covering, nice corners, 3/4" plywood, and Eminence speakers. I believe he called the company "FOLEN".

Later I was working for a local electronics mfr. "PDMC" or Pulse Dynamics Manufacturing Co. We built remote broadcast rigs (some of the very first to get telco approval) and amplifiers. I have a patent on an LED VU meter we put on the 100 Watt (mono) rack mount amps.

As for books:
The Sound Reinforcement Handbook 2nd Edition...Great reference on how wire and setup PA systems

Designing/Building Speaker Systems 4th Edition... I think this is a later edition of the Weems book I started with.

Loudspeakers for Musicians From Speaker Builder... This has some useful designs.

ps Its probably more cost effective to buy cabs.

[gardenofsound]

Willy,

I hear you about the cost effectiveness, so here are a few questions/comments I have for you:

I have been able to find stand alone subwoofers/low frequency speaker systems by themselves all over the place. Stand alone midrange or high frequency cabs have been impossible to find for me. Do you have any advice on where to buy this stuff?

I looked at the McCauley site, but I've not been able to find places that carry their gear.

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated!

[WillyT]

gardenofsound

Look for full range 2-way cabs. Bi-amp these and add subs for tri-amp system.

Get the Yamaha book (the first one on the list) read it cover to cover Then read it again. This is the one you will come back to time after time.

As for McCauley look and drool. If I could afford this stuff thats what I would get. But worry about decent mics first. Its somewhat easier to eq cheap speakers than cheap mics.