more bottom end

[yoder74]

I am trying to get more low end out of my guitar and am thinking about running a bass amp and cab along with my guitar amp and head. Was wondering if anybody had any thoughts if this would help me get there or if i am going the wrong direction. I am using a mini rec with a thiele cab and was thinking of getting a bass amp under 50 watts. I am trying to get a sludge/ doom tone but dont want to lose that Mesa tone.

[Drowning in Viscera]

Get an 8 string

[Danny Danzi]

I am trying to get more low end out of my guitar and am thinking about running a bass amp and cab along with my guitar amp and head. Was wondering if anybody had any thoughts if this would help me get there or if i am going the wrong direction. I am using a mini rec with a thiele cab and was thinking of getting a bass amp under 50 watts. I am trying to get a sludge/ doom tone but dont want to lose that Mesa tone.

Yeah, you're definitely going in the wrong direction. Here's the problem 90% of guitarists (especially metal and those that detune etc) run into. You are searching for the god of guitar tones. One day, you'll find it. The problem is it will NOT fit in a mix with other instruments. What you think is "bass" in the sludge/doom tone are two things you have to consider.

1. You're listening to mastered material where ALL the instruments make up the bass you hear in a recording. When comparing guitar tones to your own, make sure you're not using any eq on your media player, entertainment center etc and play a part of your CD that has the guitar all alone. There isn't as much bass in a guitar tone as you think. The low tuning is what makes you think that. Trust me when I tell you, if you get a bass amp and start loading up bass in your tone, if you ever play out live, the first thing the soundman is going to do is high pass you and your nice bass amp right out of the mix.

2. The tone of god that you wind up getting, will probably not work in a mix if you record it. You have to construct a few different sounds for both live and studio. For the most part, you need a sound that cuts through the mix with other instruments being present. This particular sound may not sound too great by itself...but it works killer in a mix. This is the way it goes in this field...what you think is great by itself, can sometimes be what I call "a sound hog". Meaning, it's cutting into too many other areas in a mix.

For example, you usually do NOT need any low end after about 100 Hz in a guitar tone. Even there, some guys will high pass from 130 Hz or even up to 180 Hz on down depending on how much low end is delivered from the tone. Some guys have a clue, so you don't need to high pass the low end as much. But as soon as you start "djent'n chords", and hear a "whoomfing" sound....you lost the battle because you're now getting into bass guitar territory and this will never work in a mix nor will it work live.

That Recto has enough bass to push you and if it isn't giving you a nice low end push, you may want to look into different speakers before you try incorporating a bass amp into your rig. 4x12 cab with Celestions works wonders for me. I use 25 watt greenbacks which break up a little sooner so I can use less gain from my amp giving it a more natural crunch that doesn't "whoomf" or sound so gainy that the sound trips over itself due to too much synthetic gain.

That's another thing to consider....gain. What you may THINK you hear in a gain stage from your favorite player may not be the case. When you have the right sound dialed in and have the right compression setting with it, it will sound nice and tight and seem to have more gain and sustain than you think it does. Too much gain can totally mess up your sound. You need a happy medium there because excessive gain can also mud up the tone and stop GOOD bass from being present while turning it to mud.

So if I were you, I'd definitely forget about the bass amp theory and concentrate on maybe better speakers and working on getting the right gain. The Recto by itself may not be enough. You may need to run some sort of pedal along with it while decreasing the gain in your head and allowing the pedal to take over. Something like those new Bogner pedals Sweetwater is advertising, a Tube Screamer, some sort of over-drive....just something to tighten up the flabby gain the Recto has.

Trust me...I use super low tunings (mostly drop C) so I know a little something about this stuff and have a pretty decent sound for the stuff I do. The one thing you don't want, especially with lower tuning, is a load of bass on top of it. You can have one of those loaded with low end tones etc if you are playing all by yourself in a song or doing a solo or something...but I promise you, a tone loaded with low end will not work in a mix of other instruments. The low end is going to mask stuff like kick drums and bass guitar and you will have a problem getting them to all work in the same mix. Here's an example for you. Go on Youtube and listen to Periphery doing "Icarus Lives". I know it's probably a bit different than what you're wanting...but this is a pretty killer low tuned tone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfOnq-zXXBw

Listen to the low tuning on that. The bass you hear is actually the bass guitar and the guitars have less low end than you think they do. Hope some of this helps...good luck.

[R Whittington]

Great post and explanation Danny! Thank you for contributing!

[Danny Danzi]

Great post and explanation Danny! Thank you for contributing!

You're quite welcome and thanks for the message. I hope it helps the guy.

[yoder74]

Thanks for the input Danny. I was wondering what direction to go. I wonder about speakers. When I called my sales engineer she suggested maybe trying an Orange Iso bass cab but $800 bucks for a guess seemed like an expensive maybe at best. I do have to admit though it does make me wonder about what it might sound like. As far as pedals goes I run a Bad Monkey overdrive and a Boss Fuzz FZ3 and a Boss CS3. I was considering something like a EBS OctaBass pedal but didn't know as that alternative was far cheapier than the Orange cabinet. Its just tough because I can hear the tone in my head but just can't figure out how to get there, but I thank you for your very well informed advice. I just hope that what I am hearing in my head isn't telling me to but the guitar down and pick up a bass...lol... Maybe its too many years of listening to Sleep and OM.

[Danny Danzi]

Thanks for the input Danny. I was wondering what direction to go. I wonder about speakers. When I called my sales engineer she suggested maybe trying an Orange Iso bass cab but $800 bucks for a guess seemed like an expensive maybe at best. I do have to admit though it does make me wonder about what it might sound like. As far as pedals goes I run a Bad Monkey overdrive and a Boss Fuzz FZ3 and a Boss CS3. I was considering something like a EBS OctaBass pedal but didn't know as that alternative was far cheapier than the Orange cabinet. Its just tough because I can hear the tone in my head but just can't figure out how to get there, but I thank you for your very well informed advice. I just hope that what I am hearing in my head isn't telling me to but the guitar down and pick up a bass...lol... Maybe its too many years of listening to Sleep and OM.

LOL Yoder...there you are! I was wondering what happened to you and how you made out with this. You're welcome...glad to hopefully shine some light on this for you. Ok, let's try this another way. I really think you're onto something with the OctaBass or something equal.

The main thing we have to stay focused with here is to allow the sound to still sound like a guitar yet have the bass thrust you're looking for. That said, you definitely HAVE to be careful if you are thinking of pumping any sub lows in this tone. It's going to walk right on top of your bass guitar no matter how you slice it.

So, what if we carve up a guitar sound via eq and add some elements of bass to it? For example, in most situations in a real guitar tone with massive drive, we're not going to need any low end under 80 Hz. Even 80 is pushing it. Me personally, for my particular tone, I start high passing at 120 as the tone itself isn't loaded with lows to begin with. But the thing we don't want in this tone you're creating, is that low and air sound that literally sounds like a blanket over top of your tone. If you were to record it and solo it up, it would sound like "woooooosssssssssssssssss" and to be honest, that just sounds terrible.

So we need to isoloate your tone so that you got half a guitar tone in the low mids to upper mids, then leave the bottom open for the octave pedal this way you can literally sculpt the bass you want as well as how much of that effect you use.

For example, if you had an eq you could use that would get rid of all your low end. Make the tone sound like a guitar first without any low end push. I'd say remove like 180 Hz on down. Then, bring this octave thing in or something equal and add the low end in this way so it literally becomes a part of "the entity" you're building. From there, start adding lows a little at a time until you find that happy medium.

I'd definitely not use a bass cab or anything that accentuates bass. As soon as you do that, I'm tellin' ya brother, it's going into bass guitar territory and it's going to sound like a wall of mud. If we do it the other way I'm talking while still keeping "guitar" as a part of the tone while adding some sub low octave or whatever, we get the elements of the bass without having the bass and the sub low that goes with it.

Think of it as an extended guitar if you will. That's how I'd go about it. See, the octave device is going to add something that an eq will not give you. That sub low push it gives...we need to make it a tone, not a bass sub...understand what I mean? It needs to be there in the sound to give it that thick thing you want, but you need to cap it off so it doesn't get out of control. Maybe make sure that you don't push it lower than say 90 Hz or something. You know...sort of like a crossover set up. Create the tone in two sections. First get the real guitar tone and when doing this, keep the bass end of it out until you add the Octave. Make sense?

Of course I don't know the tone you hear in your head, but I threw this together as I was typing this. I got a guitar tone that has the lows stripped out...then I added an octave box that I have just lightly and tuned the guitar to low Bb. It sounds pretty sick..and could use even more of the octave thing. But this is just a rough idea that took me 3 minutes to lay down. Something to think about. Here's the link:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/DannyBbRiff.mp3

Good luck with whatever you decide. Keep me posted!