Filtering

[oldfriend]

hi,

i have the rhythm guitars and the bass guitar 'fighting for survival' problem with a song... the problem is between 100 hz and 450 hz range .... if i increase the volume of the rhythm guitars then the bass guitar would die out and vice versa...

i was wondering if i could pass the bass guitar through a notch filter.... the filter is designed in such a way that every 10 hz, i notch it and then release it back to normal the next 10 hz... i propose to do it between the freq. range 100 hz to 450 hz.. I apply the inverse of this filter to the rhythm guitars.... this way i feel they will not fight, and i get the best from both the signals.... with a little bit of compromise...

is this type of filtering common in recording techniques...????... if it is,... is my freq. selection ok or is there a "thumb rule" to follow.... !!!.... are there any articles on the net, where i can learn about this????.....

Thanks for reading dudes...... i await your comments on this....

Best regards

DC

[+Erik.+]

i can't advise on notch filtering but what aren't you just using normal eq to seperate the bass and guitar? particularly if you are sure of the ranges that are causing the problems?

[oldfriend]

hello Erik,

thank you for your quick response....

EQing does not help as it changes tone / i loose out on some frequencies from either of the signals.... the problem with the two signals clashing is not through out the song either, but in places... i thought with this type of filtering i could save the tone and also stop the clash...

cheers,

DC

[Sonic Valley]

I've been experimenting with bottom end latley with good results. What's happening is that you're guitars and bass are all living in the same zone. I woould toss the bass way down there so it extends to about 40-70hz....move the guitars up a bit and add a bit of mids but stay away from the mud zone...300hz and pan the guitars slightly. This should give every thing a sonic home with no cat fights. Got a sample for us to hear?

[oldfriend]

hello sonic...

gimme a day and i will upload the song.... i am working on the notch filtering thing.... just found out that the band width of 10 hz gave some problems but 20 hz bandwidth seems to work... i am impressed.... !!!..

you can give it a shot too sonic... i did my filtering on cool edit 96... fft filter option...

add cool.ini file in windows directory with the following.... under [Filters96]

Item36=dc 150-390 20 hz comb filter,3,27,0,100,4588,100,4883,100,4884,0,5158,0, 5159,100,5383,100,5384,0,5598,0,5599,100,5795,100, 5796,0,5977,0,5978,100,6146,100,6147,0,6303,0,6304 ,100,6451,100,6452,0,6590,0,65 91,100,6722,100,6723,0,6846,0,6847,100,16384,100,2 7,0,100,4588,100,4883,100,4884,0,5158,0,5159,100,5 383,100,5384,0,5598,0,5599,100,5795,100,5796,0,597 7,0,5978,100,6146,100,6147,0,6 303,0,6304,100,6451,100,6452,0,6590,0,6591,100,672 2,100,6723,0,6846,0,6847,100,16384,100,1,0,12000,1 ,2,0,0,1000,100,4,0,100,-15,1,,1,,1,

then run cool edit 96 and under Transform>filters>FFT,... you will get a preset option dc 150-390 20 hz comb.... i applied this to the bass guitar and the inverse of this preset to the rhythm guitars.... now both the signals co-exist in peace without spectral blurring...

Cheers...

DC

[This message has been edited by vulcan_dc (edited 11-22-2002).]

[This message has been edited by vulcan_dc (edited 11-22-2002).]

[oldfriend]

hmm... well that preset i put in the previous message is supposed to be on big line.... this forum software is 'word wraping'... so you see many lines....

if you decide to use it please re format it to one long line and then insert into cool.ini file...

regards

DC

[+Erik.+]

sounds interesting man, i'll try and convert your settings to my system.

[Sonic Valley]

I don't use cool edit for music production any more but post the tracks without any EQ or compression or upload them directly to my server and I'll check em out and see what they sound like. Post/upload the bass and gtr's.

Cheers

[oldfriend]

hey guys....


click on the link to download maya.mp3
http://www.artistcollaboration.com/~Vulcan_DC/maya.mp3

while you download.... few things to know.....

The final mix was compressed... i am still struggling with my rhythm guitar tone (too noisy), it has been through a speaker simulation though.... so hopefully no fizz, like the last time.... I split the rhythm guitar signal... delayed right by 10ms, and eq'd it slightly bass heavy... i think i need to spend more time on the drums etc.. and,.. oh yeah.. no vocals on the song ....

the comb filter seemed to have worked... i kept a 20 hz bandwidth.... with 10 hz it affected the rhythm guitar,... at one point i could not hear the chord changes (semi tonal)...

this whole comb filter thing is very tacky at the moment.... (the selection of band width is dependent on the scale and the chords played in the song). i hope you dudes in the studios try it out and find out if this kinda thing works....!! i am not experienced enough to pass judgement on it.... however there was a marked improvement with this song.... all the muddy sound caused by the two signals sharing the same bandwidth has reduced... and the bass guitar volume shot up....

i await your comments...

cheers,

DC


p.s:

hello Sonic,

you want me to upload wav files or mp3????..... i connect to the net with a 33.6 KPBS modem.... and my throughput is 2 KB per sec..... so wav files are a near impossibility... i could upload mp3z.... but would you be able to hear the difference???... mp3z you know, denature sound so much.... lemme know dude.... i'll comply... thanks...

[oldfriend]

dudes....

why is it so quite in here,,...?????... please comment on the mix, even if you hate it to the core.....

i am not a engineer, i have no ego, and your thoughts on the mix will help me to get in line..... so go right ahead.... Hit me.... please....

cheers...

DC

[Sheriton]

Well, I had a listen. I think your filtering idea blurs the boundry a little too much between the bass and guitar. The bass no longer has it's own place to sit in the mix, as it and the rhythm guitar overlap. The usual technique is to roll off some of the bottom end of the r guitar so that it no longer clashes with the bass. The guitar will sound a bit thin & weedy on it's own when treated like this, but that doesn't matter, as it's how it sounds in the context of the mix that is important. When high-pass filtered and combined with the bass, you should get a much better sound, with no fighting for space.
Hope this helps,
Sheriton

[+Erik.+]

that's an interesting reply and would explain why bass is so hard to hear sometimes on many heavy metal records.

[oldfriend]

hello sheriton,

Thank you so much for your comments.....

I am not too happy about the song either..... actually i hate it.... first of all i think the way i delayed the right channel on the rhythm guitar by 10 sec and eq it, did not work at all... i think most of the mud is created by the Rhy guitar itself.... more than with the bass....

Rolling off the bottom end of the rhythm guitar and the upper end of the bass is what i used to do before... but over time i thought that was not the right thing to do as one tends to kill the full sound of the instrument... i now realize that it is ok to do it....

what freq. do u believe its safe to roll of the bass guitar???.... is it ok if i do a low pass on it at 400 hz and the rhythm guitar a high pass at 200 hz... by doing so the only place they might clash would be between 200 to 400 hz.... which i can downplay with eq..... !!!!

once again,.. thank you sheriton...

i await your comments...

Best regards,

DC

[oldfriend]

hello (Ed)SoundCracker,


Thank you for you message.... as you know i am not an engineer... i was getting a little worried whether i was doing something fundamentally wrong while i acquired or mixed the sound.... you have cleared all those doubts now

I guess you are right.... i am trying to get two signals in the same bandwidth.... i have now decided to go do some low pass filters on the bass guitar and vice versa on the rhythm guitars so that they have their own space..... i am sure that would work.... so hold on till i post the new mp3... and you can download that....

thank you once again for that wonderful reply....

best regards

DC

[Sheriton]

[This message has been edited by Sheriton (edited 11-29-2002).]