advice on vinyl transfer

[Icky]

I've been in the process of transferring most of my albums (and the occasional demo tape for my friends) to CD, and someone asked me if I could do the same for them...trouble is, he's got a 78RPM to transfer, and I'm just wondering if anyone has encountered this before. I had thought of playing it at 45RPM for the transfer to my computer, and then playing around with the sample rate or something, but I wouldn't have a proper reference for the speed, plus I'd have to mix back down 44.1 afterwards which I think would be pointless in the end...anyone have any advice on this particular "project"?? Thanks!!

[resistor man]

Do a search, this has come up... you might look in your local Salvation Army outlet and see if you can find a 70's era turntable that plays 78.

[Icky]

I actually found some info online regarding sample rate...to do what I want, I have to play the album at 33RPM, and record it at 22050Hz, then convert the sample rate to 51598Hz, then re-sample to 44100Hz. According to what I found, this should do the trick. Just thought I'd let you know.

[resistor man]

Hmm, you know that recording at 22k limits the upper freq to 11k, right, no matter what you do later? On the other hand, there's probably not much info in that range on a 78...

[knightshow]

You should record at the highest sample rate possible... 48khz if possible. Play the record at the fastest speed possible (45rpm). Later, use a time compress/expand (I know Sound Forge and Cool Edit have them... I can't remember the names for each), and time compress the time until it sound normal.
Time compress just makes it sound faster... which is what you want. You'll probably compress it at about 60% or so... this should get you at the speed you want to be. Play with it. Just remember, don't mess with the sample rate... always record at the highest sample rate possible.

Nick

[Icky]

Thanks for the info. I'm still researching the process and different ways of achieving the desired results.

[JediSB]

Dart Pro has a feature built in for this. It allows you to record 78s at 33 1/3 and it will adjust it for you. Dart isn't the greatest software out there for Vinyl restoration but it does a respectable job. I can't really say that it is worth the $399 they charge to solve your problem though. www.dartpro.com

[Bobbsy]

Rather than mess with sampling directly, I would use Cooledits pitch shifter (Transform/Time-Pitch/Stretch) and work out the ratio to convert the speed.

...though having said that, finding a second hand 78rpm turntable sounds a lot less hassle.

Bob

[finetunes]

I would use Cooledits pitch shifter (Transform/Time-Pitch/Stretch) and work out the ratio to convert the speed...Bobsy

I'm transfering a lot of 78's but I had one with a serious warp that would shik when played at 78rpm, so I recorded it at a lower speed then used the method above - it worked flawlessly.
Bubba

[Icky]

Thanks everyone....I found the info I was looking for using Transfor/Time Pitch /Stretch, entering a ratio of 57.692( I found some info on the net...I'm no mathematician!!), selecting medium precision, and resample for stretching mode, and it comes out to 78RPM if I record the wave file at 45RPM...Now, I just have to clean it up real good...I found out that way back in the 50's, you can get blank discs, and record your own vinyl(Am I the only one that would love one of those babies to play with, and maybe modify the motor??), and the quality of the recording someone wants transfered is really crappy...major hiss...I gotta work on that part now...sound like she recorded it in a nice big room probably like 20 feet away from the mic!! Thanks again for the help.

Icky

[resistor man]

Thanks for the info, it will come in handy when my 78rpm turntable dies...

[snarfdudes]

"Hmm, you know that recording at 22k limits the upper freq to 11k, right, no matter what you do later? On the other hand, there's probably not much info in that range on a 78"

22k or maybe 16k is very reasonable. come on, I have a Altec 639A ribbon from 1939-40, works well, was state of the art and the top end was 10k, so think about it. anything higher and you add fine scratches, and hiss....recording higher is great for spoken word, if you want to sit there for hours and start cutting out the clicks and pops maybe..no thanks for me.

FYI, BEFORE tape (long before a lot of you guys...even me actually...hehehehe) EVERYTHING was cut on a DISC. from the late 1920's to the mid 1950's, broadcast recordings and "one offs" like you mention were usually cut on acetate discs with a glass or metal base sometimes even cardboard(often manufactured by presto recording corp in NJ) there were also mass pressed vinyl discs for radio syndication, national commericals, etc. these were usually 4 inches bigger then a LP (16 inch) and played on a turntable with a 16 inch arm. (though there were also 12" discs as well) fortunately my technics SP15 is fitted with such, as I have some 300 of these discs. and here's a shameless plug for the 1940's radio spots page on my web site:
http://members.tripod.com/~s_snailham/1940s.html

anyways, you have a difficult task ahead of you. I would recommend even borrowing a decent table with 78 speed, because it's less time consuming, but as long as you can convert the transfer well, that's the main thing...getting it into the PC.

second, I would suspect it will be virtually impossible to clean up the disc completely. the conditions you describe are typical of a portable disc recorder with a cheap dynamic microphone of the time. I remember getting a disc for transfer where it was a wedding ceremony and god knows where the mic was,but it sure as hell wasn't where it should have been. very hollow, and add the disc surface noise, it doesn't help. audio quality on those things were no where near professional broadcast quality of discs even from the 1930's or 40's, so that add even more work. the best situation is to try to reduce surface noise, while using EQ to punch up the voice in the mid range. try to make the voice or whatever is on the recording stand out over surface noise.

if you successfully completely clean this up without losing a lot of audio quality through CEP's NR, I applaude you. the NR is good, but not when it's used too much. it's a fine line between too much and too little.

[Kihoalu]

A couple of little things:

If you play the 78 at 45 any 20Khz info will be shifted down to 45/78 times 20K, which is 12Khz. 15Khz (which is a more reasonable maximum HF expectation) will be shifted down to 9.24Khz while playing so the 11Khz limit of 22K sample rate is no problem at all!!

A bigger problem is your needle. 78's had very large playback (and cutting) stylii. Your LP cartridge needle will be sitting on crud at the bottom of the groove. Even with at very good condition 78 you will get lots of noise and scratchy sounds. You need to get a cartridge with a special big needle. You may want to get a cheap cartridge, break off the existing needle and glue the end of a large sewing needle in it's place. This would require steady hands, small tools, and a microscope.

I Trying to do the same process myself with some 78's dating back to the very early 1900's.

Good Luck...

...K

[snarfdudes]

damn...forgot about that myself...but you are very correct. the LP stylus is too small for a 78 groove, and often rides the bottom on the groove, while most of your info is on the groove wall above the bottom....

the best route to take is a 78 stylus...if you have a stanton cartridge, I believe stanton still makes a 78 stylus for it's 500 series. I use a 78 stylus myself, and can make a substantial difference in quality compared to the LP stylus.

[angus]

Hay Icky I know that this is like months late but No-one has mentioned Step 1.....
Clean the record well before you start, invest in a really good carbon fibre brush.