Since when did Sweetwater start carrying Behringer again?

[jpleong]

To this point:

then of course,he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about,with regard the Truth 3030 model or any of the other decent products Behringer has made here and there

I have personally sunk over $1000 in Behringer gear purchased early in my working career. Of that $1000, only one piece of Behringer gear remains that hasn't died or given me serious trouble -the Behringer DI800. Think about it, that's at least $900 dollars wasted at a time when I was only making $5.50/hr. Part of that bundle of joy was an original set of Behringer Truth monitors (2031, maybe?) with titanium tweeters. Turns out that titanium tweeters on a studio monitor hurt your ears after hours of using them which is why better (note: not more expensive) near-fields use silk dome tweeters. It, of course, didn't matter anyway as one of the tweeters failed. I quickly junked the pair. In addition, I've ripped out Behringer Graphic EQs from PA systems and that magically fixes feedback problems. Swapping out the Behringer mixer and replacing it with a cheaper Yamaha MG fixed a muddy mix at a coffee house. I could go on and on about how I've had to break it to people that the sharp-looking piece of gear they bought is actually the cause of their problems and they'd have to spend money again to fix what should not have been broken in the first place.

This guy was actually complaining about having to warn his clients that Sweetwater now carries Behringer(whereas before somehow,he could refer his clients to this retailer with complete confidence...just because of one particular brand)...WTF?

I actually warn clients about a whole lot of other products made by other brands. For example, I've had to back-pedal about TC Electronic's computer interfaces. Even though I love most of their stuff, I have had too many failures associated with TC's DICE chip so anything that uses it, I advise people appropriately. That covers a lot of gear made by Presonus, Focusrite, and M-Audio. The difference is, unlike these other brands, I can point to the whole catalog of Behringer products as unethically designed, sonically garbage or likely to fail.

Why is Behringer such an embarrassment to jpleong,when Sweetwater also carries Tascam,Casio,Alesis,Samson and the like?How much different is Behringer from these other brands?They're all made in China,they all have particular models that people should avoid,and I've personally had plenty of headaches from ALL of these brands at one time or another,over the years.

The difference here is that all those other brands, at one time or another, actually went out and tried to design something unique and which added value to the musician on a budget. They saw a problem or category that had not been filled and actually designed and made a product to address that. They all did something great. Now, they all have problem gear, too; perhaps it was because of manufacturing defects, poor QC, or perhaps they were too ambitious in their initial product goals. It happens. But at least they tried.

Behringer has none of that going for it. It sees a successful category or product and decides it'll copy (often blatantly) the same thing. But instead of offering a true value to the consumer, the copy itself is of lower quality than the original, either sounding bad or prone to failure. I realize that Behringer is "changing" with it's foray into super-high-quality gear, but it'll be a long time before I can ever trust a piece of their gear again.

If you want to completely dismiss a pair of monitors just by the mere virtue of them mimicking a design,then your attitude problem is yours and yours alone.

I'm quite amazed that a musician has this level of apathy when a company outright steals the look and design of its products from other companies. How would you feel if someone stole your recording, claimed it as their own creation, and then proceeded to make money hand-over-fist while you (who has spent the time, effort, and money to actually create) made nothing?

The most astounding thing is that you see my "attitude" as a problem. Are we so bankrupt and bereft of morals that we would sooner stand by a thief than a man of principle? Do we worship the bargain savings of the Almighty Dollar so much that we would gladly turn a blind-eye to robbery of our fellow man if we got a share of the profit? This isn't one or two isolated instances for this company; this is a pattern of wanton trademark, copyright, and patent infringement.

You can curse-word me all you want but it's not going to change the fact that Behringer has been ripping-off everyone all these years. I'm a victim and, as you've repeatedly pointed out, so are a helluvalotta other people.

JP

[elwoodblues1969]

Ok...I get it now..as it all makes perfect sense now...you started out creating an entire makeshift studio using exclusively Behringer gear,it all went wrong and you're still fuming over it....I mean...that's where your embarrassment really comes from,isn't it?

Most of us start out with limited means and a certain amount of ignorance and as a result,we accept our losses and gain knowledge from it and move on....but not you and instead,you'd rather trash an entire company for the rest of your life and deny that a company can actually improve over time & make some decent gear.

Hey,at least Behringer is moving forward...whereas Alesis(who used to be at the top of their game years ago)...has degenerated into what Behringer was many years ago and what's worse,is that Alesis's customer support is non-existent(i.e. no e-mail support & they don't answer their support line).

Bottom line is,you go the cheap route,you take your chances...but like I've mentioned earlier in this thread,even high end gear goes wrong,such as Adam,Equator Audio,M-Audio & such and when your out of some serious coin and things go wrong....it makes your whining about Behringer,patently absurd.

By the way...how does front porting around the tweeters constitute copyright infringement?Akai has done the same thing with their RPM8's...does this mean they have committed the same violation?

JBL is known for their elliptical waveguide designs and recently,Alesis has a very similar design on their new Elevate 3's...Emotiva Pro has Adam Audio's folded ribbon design on their AirMotiv line....so are these companies violating copyrights as well?

So then..according to you,titanium tweeters by their very virtue of being titanium,are all too harsh and cause ear fatigue?Really?
So what your saying,is that any tweeters using metal in their design is a flaw?

So I suppose then,that you consider the KRK Exposes',the Event Opals and everything that Genelec makes is garbage then?

I have some news for you genius,all of these high end monitors use metal dome tweeters...some of them have a mix of beryllium and or aluminum in them,but nonetheless,they're all metal.

You should know that there are varying levels of quality in metal-based designs and that the driver components behind them,also contribute to their sound characteristics.

Yeah...so you warn your clients about other brands as well...good for you...so what of it?Then why do you single out one company,voice you're disgust towards Sweetwater about it and regard Sweetwater as nothing more than a "Wal-Mart" of the music store industry for carrying it?...oh yeah,because you were haphazard enough to spend your entire minimum wage existence on Behringer products and you'll never get over it.

My whole point is that it's good to keep and open mind about music gear companies and realize that they can change for the better and not everything that a particular company makes is garbage.
Behringer will most likely continue to make sketchy gear as well,but any large corporation that outsources their manufacturing and materials will have similar issues....but yet,you insist on superimposing your personal experiences and targeting one company and scoffing at one particular company for selling that one companies gear...just because you decided to choose one company to buy all of your gear.

Yes...people should do their research and use caution,before buying Behringer....but Behringer is still going strong,while Alesis suffered near-bankruptcy...before being bought out by a dj-equipment company(Numark)...makes you wonder,doesn't it?

I don't dismiss everything that Alesis makes,but I would be more inclined to recommend Behringer,because they don't abandon their customers,like Alesis did with their Alesis Fusion keyboard customers.

[DAS]

Probably time for cooler heads to prevail on this one.

Sorry, I've been too busy to monitor the forums much lately, but since I was in this thread near the beginning I'll quickly chime in again. Also, sorry, time restraints prevent me from reading everything that has transpired here. I'm sure many valid points have been made, and I think I have the gist of it, but if not...apologies.

JP, I totally understand your concerns. As you point out, Behringer is one brand we did away with a number of years ago (there have been others, some of them "high-end" brands). So we had many of the same concerns going in this time. But we did our due diligence on it. All I can tell you is that in our estimation things have really been changing at Behringer, for the better. We've had very few problems with the products we've been stocking this time around. While I recognize they aren't for everyone (some of them may not even be for anyone ) they do make some legitimately good stuff. The blatant copying seems to have become more a thing of the past. The vast majority of their products stand on their own these days (at least as much as anyone's do). Attitudes, and thus companies, can change. I believe they deserve a second chance. I think if you allow room for that and honestly evaluate their current lineup you'll find a lot of decent stuff. It happens to be inexpensive in part due to the scale of economy they achieve through an effective worldwide distribution channel. I remember a time when I couldn't afford JBL and Soundcraft. I was glad when other alternatives appeared on the market. I only wish they were as good as the Behringer stuff is now.

Elwood, I hope your relationship with SW is in tact. I'm sure you know we'd never knowingly leave any customer high and dry. If I need to intervene in some capacity let me know. It's probably not realistic for us to be everything to everyone, any more than a manufacturer can try to be everything to everyone. My philosophy/opinion is that there are plenty of organizations in the market who are all willing to cut a few more corners to save money and try to win on price. We don't need to be another one. We try to offer much more service, customer support, and knowledge while still having competitive prices.

Whether my few point carry any validity (or weight) with you my main goal here is to try to restore civility. We can all disagree. I just want to make sure we maintain a civil discussion.

Thanks,

David

[jpleong]

David,
Like I said earlier in this thread, Sweetwater's response (via your first reply) was sufficient to address my concerns. They were sufficient when this thread was started eight months ago and I felt no need to add to it until someone began name calling and deriding my experience. Please feel free to lock this thread as it seems to have outlived its usefulness.

JP

edit - and I do, indeed, keep an open mind with Behringer; more so since they've acquired the Midas/Klark-Teknik group. Having fixed Behringer "problems" every year for the past twelve-or-so years, however, means there's a lot of making-up to do in my mind

[DAS]

Okay, we'll see how it goes. Thanks. Sometimes people communicate in an inherently more confrontational way. I don't really know why. It is what it is. Part of being on forums at times. I'll lock it if it continues.

For what it's worth, the decision to put Behringer back in the lineup had nothing to do with any hard times in the economy or anything like that. We've been experiencing record growth both before and after that decision. It just seemed like a valid thing for us to do at this point, for many reasons.

[Lmf]

Seems to me that Sweetwater is offering products from various manufacturers to give its customers the right to choose the equipment they like for a price they can afford. Sweetwater provides two-years of warranty as we all have appreciated. The bottom line: A person purchasing equipment (any brand) ought to research the product and the companies manufacturing them. If they don't like what the research reveals, they are at liberty NOT TO BUY that product. Sweetwater isn't demanding you buy the products they offer and as a consumer (hopefully and "educated" one) the choice to buy any product advertised by Sweetwater is the consumer's choice. If a manufacturer does not meet the consumer's standards - then by all means don't buy that particular brand from Sweetwater. Other consumers have the right to purchase the items and brands they choose to own for reasons of their own. No one is telling YOU that YOU have to recommend those brands to others. Some consumers apparently want to use this forum to "bully others" into not buying such brand/products and is critical of Sweetwater for selling products from certain manufacturers. Sweetwater is not forcing consumers to buy products from a particular brand as it will always be the customer's decision to purchase the products and name brand they choose. I don't see the problem as consumers are not being forced to buy products manufactured by a brand they dislike for personal reasons?

Best wishes,

Lloyd

[jpleong]

I don't see the problem as consumers are not being forced to buy products manufactured by a brand they dislike for personal reasons?

Llyod,
If you're referring to me, my concern was not that consumers are forced but rather tricked into buying Behringer based on a history of specious marketing and unethical design. As a result, many (and I mean a big many) consumers are then left with a poor-quality product with a short operational life-span. The belief and expectation that the consumer should do his own due-diligence is fine and good, but when said corporation can literally blanket the Internet in ad-copy press releases and the ad-supported MI-press never puts out a negative review (because of obvious conflicts of interest) due-diligence becomes very difficult by oneself. It falls to peers to raise concern. Citizenship 101.

The world does not need more choices, it needs more good choices. Like I said earlier, I am fine if Sweetwater thinks Behringer is a good choice, again, as long as they are keeping an eye on it. If people want to keep reviving this thread ad nauseum, I can keep posting -but, a dead horse is a dead horse. If you want to debate the finer points of "free" markets vs responsible capitalism, let's do that someplace else?

JP

[elwoodblues1969]

my concern was not that consumers are forced but rather tricked into buying Behringer based on a history of specious marketing and unethical design. As a result, many (and I mean a big many) consumers are then left with a poor-quality product with a short operational life-span. The belief and expectation that the consumer should do his own due-diligence is fine and good, but when said corporation can literally blanket the Internet in ad-copy press releases and the ad-supported MI-press never puts out a negative review (because of obvious conflicts of interest) due-diligence becomes very difficult by oneself. It falls to peers to raise concern. Citizenship 101.

The world does not need more choices, it needs more good choices. Like I said earlier, I am fine if Sweetwater thinks Behringer is a good choice, again, as long as they are keeping an eye on it. If people want to keep reviving this thread ad nauseum, I can keep posting -but, a dead horse is a dead horse. If you want to debate the finer points of "free" markets vs responsible capitalism, let's do that someplace else?

JP

I don't wish to incite an ongoing heated debate or be combative,but Lloyd's points mirror my own...as well as nearly every other Sweetwater consumer.
My earlier posts could have been less evasive,but some of your complaints were so trivial and excessive,that it touched a nerve and set me off.

Seriously,why don't you just file a lawsuit against Behringer...because you seem to be asserting that their marketing tactics are criminal and talking legal action would make more sense,than for you to expend so much energy releasing your angst on this forum.

In a just and perfect world,there would be a federal mandate to prohibit outsourcing,while also implementing an unconditional lifetime warranty all merchandise...but that will obviously never be a reality.

I don't like all of the marketing b.s. any more than you do,but Behringer is not the only one doing it.Honestly,at this point in my life,I would never buy another Behringer product and I'm not likely to ever purchase an Alesis product either....but whenever I have bought low-priced gear and it didn't work out for whatever reason,I never made a "federal case" out of it,because I wasn't really out of a lot of coin.

Just recently,I had become so fed up with Kurzweil as a company,that I decided to sell my PC3LE6 keyboard to a local music store and I let go of a $1500 keyboard for $350.

Kurzweil markets their PC3 series as midi controller keyboards and these being modern day workstations,one would safely assume that the computer integration would be comprehensive,but this was not the case.

The on board screen is so small,that it's about 15 years behind the times,the supposed "10 insert effects" is false,due to the way the effects routing is allocated,the on board sequencer cannot be synced to my DAW and the on board sounds cannot be used as VST's.
What's worse,is that whenever you make the transition from the midi controller mode to the on board mode,you first have to shut off the keyboard,for the change to take effect.

When the PC3 series first came out,it was replete with defects and the memory card compatibility issue was a certified nightmare....which is why I waited and researched the hell out of the PC3LE6 before I bought it.

It was Kurzweil's least expensive workstation and although it wasn't defective,it gave me a world of problems,it terms of computer integration...but I held onto it because I loved the sounds & the customer support was good.

Kurzweil claims that their keyboards are so outdated feature-wise,because they're a small company and as a result,they are understaffed and their R & D department is under-budgeted.

All this being said,I could perceive their marketing as being misleading or even blatantly decietful and play the role of being a "victim"-but rather,I accept my loss,because I knew I was taking a chance.

Instead of me ranting on and on about Kurzweil and how they failed to create my dream workstation keyboard,I just chose to be glad for the time I did enjoy it's good attributes and was content with the software I was able to buy,as a result of the sale.

I may never buy a Kurzweil again,but I don't view them as some sort of evil company that made a victim out of me,because it was my choice to make some compromises,in order for me to attain a workstation at a budget price.

I'm sorry you suffered a significant loss money-wise back then-I really am,but who's choice was it to pour everything you had into Behringer gear without researching the company beforehand??

There were and are plenty of companies that offer budget gear,so why did you choose nothing but Behringer gear back then?

Why are you now on this continuous campaign to smear Behringer and any retailer who carries this gear?

I got news for you guy....in the last 10 years,I've lost more money than you'll probably ever spend...which is the result of the gear either being defective,or becoming obsolete and I needed to upgrade.

I've went through 4 different pairs of Samson monitors,one pair of Alesis monitors,3 pairs of M-Audio monitors,3 pairs of Behringer monitors,one pair of Equator Audio monitors,two pairs of KRK monitors and 4 different workstation keyboards(which include Korg,Yamaha and Kurzweil).

Out of all that gear I let go,I only sold one piece of gear privately and the rest,I lost thousands of dollars to various pawn shops and music stores....but I'm not pitching a fit over it,because over the years,I've made plenty of music and made good use of my gear(for the most part) and I've learned plenty from these purchases and it's knowledge that has saved me quite a bit of coin on many other purchases.

Like I had mentioned earlier in this thread,the people that have spent thousands of dollars on their Alesis Fusion keyboards are the real victims,because they virtually had no product support,so they own the right to complain all they want for all of eternity....whereas you need to move on and deal with your past gear purchases by forgetting about them.

This is the age of the internet,where a world of information is at your fingertips,so if you get burned,you really can't assign all of the blame on others and certainly not target a single company(as if they are the only ones who make bad gear),for the mishaps you endure.

[jpleong]

elwoodblues1969,
Before this turns into another long-winded (from me) reply, let me say this: I didn't rant at the top. I started this thread nine months ago to find out when/why/how Sweetwater began carrying Behringer gear again. When David replied, I didn't say anything else disparagingly towards Sweetwater or about Behringer. I don't normally volunteer my opinions on anything without being asked and eight months later you asked. So I replied -a tad snarky, I admit, but you asked. If offering my opinion when asked is a "smear" campaign then, well, I suppose we have a striking difference of opinion of the definition of that word.

To the question about my personal experience with purchasing Behringer gear: Back when I made my purchases, the only "real" sources for research were the MI magazines and a scant number of enthusiast websites. Like everyone here, I too had to rely on salespeople for their opinions and experience. The salespeople I trusted then either had opinions paid-for by Behringer or did not really have the experience necessary to give me good advice. Fortunately, not all of my gear acquired at that time was from Behringer. I was guided to some quality pieces by my teachers/mentors and my Sweetwater salesperson.

No one likes to be told they made a bad decision or choice, but I wish I had someone who would have given me a no-BS assessment back then. I would have appreciated it, my clients would have appreciated it, and my wallet would have appreciated it.

The lessons you're passing on to me, with your experience with Alesis keyboards, Samson monitors, etc... I add to the things I can tell my clients if they are asking about those pieces of gear. I refuse to leave my experience in the past because, as the saying goes, "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." I have no desire for anyone to be condemned to wasting thousands of dollars if they don't have to.

JP

[elwoodblues1969]

JP,

About the time frame..well...sometimes I accidentally overlook the dates of threads,but I still think the subject of this thread is relevant and perhaps useful to others who read it.

I didn't mean to imply that you should leave your experiences in the past-but rather,that you should leave your grudge towards Behringer,in the past,as I think it's a bit excessive,is all.
What I mean to say is,that if you're going to steer your clients away from Behringer-then fine,by all means do that...but while you're at it,you may as well advise your clients to wait and save for higher end stuff altogether....because when you by into any budget companies,it's all a crap shoot.

One other thing...I want to clarify that I've never actually owned an Alesis Fusion,but I did gain quite a bit of insight into the keyboard,by researching it very heavily for several months and spending a lot of time on the Fusion forums...which is why I'm aware of all of the trouble that Fusion owners have had with it.
I was on the verge of buying one and I made the hour trip to the nearest Sam Ash store to check it out,but it turned out to be a horrific piece of plastic crap and I couldn't fathom how Alesis had the audacity to charge what they did for it,so I never went through with the purchase.

I did own an Alesis Ion once though...it had superb sounds,but no PC connectivity whatsoever,the key action was garbage and every time I flipped the power switch,I had was faced with a 50/50 chance of the audio cutting out on me altogether and had to reboot.

I never had any experience with the current Alesis midi controller keyboards,but I'd be very cautious about buying one(in the event I would ever be financially destitute enough to resort to needing one)...as they are the most moderately priced controllers I've seen lately.




-Elwood