Neumann 105 v Sennheiser e965

[like2nite]

Hi everyone,

I am considering purchasing a handheld condenser VERY SOON and I am hesitating between the Neumann 105 and the newly marketed Sennheiser e965.

I’ve read the specifications of both but would appreciate some urgent advice on the following:

1. Single (Neumann) v Dual (Sennheiser) diaphragm –

As far I understand the dual one relates only to the switchable pattern (cardio / super- cardioid) But, apart from that feature, will there be any other difference if I use only, say the supercardioid pattern of the Sennheiser?

2. Stage –

I perform on small stages in pubs, in a duo, two mikes, two wired electo-acoustic guitars. We rarely use wedgers and never ear monitors. PA speakers are often very close to the mike (less than a meter sometimes). Would the supercardioid pattern be appropriate for me?

3. Hypercardioid

Some sources list the Sennheiser as a hypercardioid, whereas others as cardio / super- cardioid. Which one is true?

4. Baskets

Neumann have multilayer gauze (mesh grid), do Sennheiser use foam?

A) If yes, how greatly can that affect the frequency response and the hindrance of high frequencies passing through?
B) Do foam shields need be replaced after some time?

5. Diaphragm size

Sennheiser claim to have a 1” (large) diaphragm, whereas the Neumann is with a ¾” one. How does that affect the quality and could that be a decisive factor in my choice?

6. Switches

In a publication, Earthworks advise that onboard switches may reduce the sonar quality of a mike. The Sennheiser comes with 3 switches, whereas the Neumann has nil, bass roll-off being built in. How would you comment?

7. Quality of diaphragm components

Shure KSM9 has a “low mass” “gold plated” “Mylar” diaphragm,. Samson CL5 has a golden capsule as well. Neumann and Sennhsiser are silent on that point. I presume all condense diaphragms are low mass, but would the gold plating result in a very big difference in the quality of sound?

8. Sensitivity

The Sennheiser has 7 mv/Pa (without preattenuation) and the Neumann 4.5 mv/Pa.

A) How would such a difference affect performance and shall I be influence by the difference in my buyer’s choice?
B) Is there a built-in preattenuation pad in the Neumann?
C) In the stage circumstance described above, will I ever need to have the preattenuation pad on?

I trust you will find the above questions on spot and will be grateful if you reply to them at your earliest convenience.

[michaelhoddy]

I have not used the new 965, but I have some time with the Neumann 105 and also the Sennheiser e865 condenser, both of which I like quite a bit.

What has lead you to narrow down to these two mics, one of which I'm pretty sure basically no one has heard or used yet? Have you ever used either one?

In a word, I think you're getting much more concerned about feature sets than you probably need to be. I know it's always a challenge to try out live vocal mics first, but how it sounds and how you feel about interacting with it as you sing and play are really the key areas of importance. Both the mics you are looking at will be quality mics, will sound great, and both may also be complete overkill, especially the Neumann, especially if you're playing the pub circuit with questionable PA's.

The e865 is a fabulous-sounding mic for like 1/3 of the price, and it has enough of a high-end user base to back this up.

Cost, while maybe a partial determinant of the mic's basic quality level, is not much of a determinant of whether or not a singer will sound good on a particular mic. I have had singers where the $500 Neumann was the right choice, and singers where a $95 SM58 was the right choice. It would be hard to tell for you, sight and sound unseen.

Don't get caught up in marketing weaselwords. Everyone and anyone can use "gold-sputtered diaphragms," "low-mass capsules," and whatever words they want- this includes great mics and not-so-great mics.

If you have PA speakers in very close proximity, a hyper or supercardoid pattern is probably a good idea. Functionally, the main difference between the two is that a hypercardioid has a slightly tighter frontal pickup pattern (although both are pretty tight), counterbalanced by the presence of a lobe of pickup 180 degrees to the rear of the mic. This can make hypercardioid mics a little bit of a challenge to deal with stage monitors and PA speakers that are in close proximity to the rear of the mic.

The presence of a roll-off filter MIGHT in some small way be able to affect frequency response (beyond the range of the filter) and phase response, but only if it's inline. Also, unless you are performing through an absolutely stellar PA in an acoustically-treated, perfectly quiet room (none of which applies to any small pub I've ever been to), there's really no way it would ever matter. Actually, I just don't think it matters period. Of course Earthworks is going to say that because they're marketing studio mics. But you're not buying from Earthworks. Actually, no one has ever come up to me on a gig even WITH a stellar PA and commented on the position of pad or roll-off switches. It's just not a big deal.

You won't need the pad switch unless you're an absolute screamer on the mic, which is usually not the case for two-guitar pub duos.

[venuesystem]

Michael summed the challenges up very well. The mic needs to compliment your voice regardless of price point. I do like the 105's, own 5 of them. I also like the Audix OM-2s, own a bunch of them. What I grab for the singer depends on how they sound through it. Both are tight polar patterns. $400 difference in price.

I would go to a store, try some mics (don't concern yourself with price) and pick the one that makes you sound the best with no processing. Try it in front of a PA speaker to get a feel for the distance it will perform in comfortably. Everything else is, as Michael put so well, is weasel words...

[nazcalito]

I have both an e865 and an e965. The e965 is far superior to the e865 and has some of the same qualities as a studio mic, both good and bad -- it is very clear and pure, but it is also very sensitive, will pick up every mistake you make, and is prone to feedback. It is switchable to hypercardioid and has a bass roll-off, features I have not yet tried. I

[scottmo]

if we are talking about patterns this is a valueable question but let me chime in and inform all you that sennheiser and nuemann are the same company so same quality different logo and different cost.

[Ted]

They're not the same company...Sennheiser owns Neumann, but it's still a separate company. And there's much more difference between the microphones than the logo and the cost (and actually, the cost is the same...they both sell for $699). I'd agree that the two are on par with each other quality-wise, but they are different designs.

[TimmyP1955]

IME, beyond a point in sound quality (835, 935, OM3/6/7, most Shures), the better the mic, the more unwanted sound it picks up and thus the more often it just won't get the job done live. Between a friend and I, we've used and given up on the KMS105, VX10, AE5400, PR22, and others, because while they sound a lot better than more commonly used mics, they could not be used often enough to justify keeping them in the mic kit. I still use the OM7 and the 767a, he's currently using the 935. (I'd like to try the PL80a and the D5.)

[Tomm Williams]

IME, beyond a point in sound quality (835, 935, OM3/6/7, most Shures), the better the mic, the more unwanted sound it picks up and thus the more often it just won't get the job done live. Between a friend and I, we've used and given up on the KMS105, VX10, AE5400, PR22, and others, because while they sound a lot better than more commonly used mics, they could not be used often enough to justify keeping them in the mic kit. I still use the OM7 and the 767a, he's currently using the 935. (I'd like to try the PL80a and the D5.)

The better the mic, the more unwanted sound it picks up? What do you mean by this? Are you talking polar pattern, proximity? dosn't get the job done how? TW

[TimmyP1955]

The better the mic, the more unwanted sound it picks up? What do you mean by this? Are you talking polar pattern, proximity? dosn't get the job done how? TW

All of the mics I mentioned as being "better mics" pick up too much monitor wash/stage wash/room wash to be useful on 90% of the gigs that I do and that my friend does. We don't usually have the time to ring the wedges for a "best" to see if it works, then re-ring for a "good" mic. We need something we can count on to work every time. (I'd use AT4050s if they were usable on more than 1 show out of 100 - the time I was able to use them, I was amazed at how much better they sounded than any handled I've heard.)

[Steve Steele]

I currently have an e865 and it's taken me awhile to really dial it in so it does't feedback or howl on it's own (especially with the lower end junky TC Helicon Pedals (sorry TC). Once done, my voice "POPS" out into the audience. I go for an operatic style over a loud rock band, and that combined with this makes a formidable sound. The one negative of the e865 is that it's a bit dark. I actually kind of like that because I like dark mics. I like FET and U47 style mics, but it does't always work live because sometimes people have a hard time understanding what I'm saying because I have a bit of a dark voice too.

And let me say I WORK the mic. I don't "eat" condenser mics the whole time, and that's why I love them. I can get up close, get a bass proximity effect with a whisper, or move two feet back and whale!. Love it!

I'm the kind of person that will make something work if I like it enough. Condensers work great on stage IF you are the right singer, with the right kind of music and you spend time tweaking. Some people should stick with a 58, and rightfully so.

Now to answer your question about the Sennheiser e965 vs Neumann KMS 105. I'm trying to decide between the two myself. I'm ready to upgrade. The honest truth is that you have to find a way to try those mics out PERIOD. You might be really sorry if you don't. Check for these things. Is the 965 dark compared to the 105? Do you like that? Does the larger diaphragm on the 965 increase the bass? (I hope so - I'm a bari who loves that radio DJ sound). Will you like that larger diaphragm sound? I love the -10db roll off because I sing LOUD sometimes and I'll distort inputs. I had to buy a pad for pre. Look into that. Check out the high end and see which one is sweeter and has more clarity. This is SO important. And finally, check for feedback rejection.

Please feel free to email me at email@stevesteele.com or leave a response here with any answers to the questions I posed. I'd like to know what others think as well. I know there are other good mics out there too. A lot of people seem to like the OMs. But I think either a Sennheiser e965 vs Neumann KMS 105 or 104 (which apparently has a bit more bass proximity) is a GREAT choice. Good luck!

Steve Steele