Mic choice for Piano

[wes9]

Hi all,
I'm looking to Mic an Upright piano (and later possibly a Grand) and am trying to make a mic choice (of course, the end variable is cost
So, what do you think would sound better?

1) an AKG C414 close to strings with another cheaper condensor (maybe a Rode NT1) mic'd further away to pick up ambience OR

2) Mid level condensor equidistant apart (2 AKG C3000b or C4000)



and the big one- What do you think will be better for piano - an AKG C414 or a Neumann TLM103?

Thanks

[michaelhoddy]

I have used the C414 quite a bit on pianos, and even thoughI have begun to use other mics instead of the 414 in other applications, I come back to the 414 (or U87's) for piano very frequently. It's always worked well for me. I think you get a lot more flexibility for the same money with the 414 as opposed to the TLM103, especially with the ability to switch polar patterns.

As far as your placement and miking technique, you'll need to experiment. Each instrument, each song, and each acoustical environment is different.

When I close-mic a grand (usually a 7' or 9'), I almost always use two mics, one placed over the bass section of strings 1/2 to 2/3 of the way toward the back of the piano with a directional pickup pattern, and the mic aimed around 45 degrees off the horizontal axis facing toward the back of the piano. The other mic is also directional, and I place it over the treble strings about 20-24" above the strings facing down about 10 degrees off the vertical axis.
I almost always use a pair of large-diaphragm mics, although not always the same type. Usually 414's though.

If I close-mic in mono, I usually use a single omni large diaphragm. Sometimes I'll place a pair of small-diaphragm omnis as room mics, but only if I want ambience in stereo. I almost never use a mono distant mic.

[the]

Use the 414. The 103 is not great for piano.

Frankly, the piano is one of the most difficult to record. I record classical piano. You need to spend the money for a good sound. I started with KM184's then to Royers 121's (get em you will love em) and DPAs.

You need a good preamp. like a Millenia Media.

[bnixon]

I have a Kawai K-60 Studio Upright and was wondering what the best mic setup is to record it?

The mics I have available are:

(2) C414-TL II's
(2) KM184's

I would like to close mic it to limit the room sound. What would you all suggest?

Thanks,
Brandon

[Mr Fun]

We have both of these mics. The C414-TL II's were really designed for voice - on every setting except omni they sounded tinny (as in a tin can) on piano. On omni they sounded great. They sounded even better with our Pendulum Tube preamp - even better than our Millenia Medias, True Systems 8 and a host of many other high end pres in the studio.

We at the studio have come to the conclusion that the 414 ULS-B are more suited for piano. In fact, AKG does not even recomend them for piano.

The KM184, while a great mic for guitar, tends to be easy to introduce odd off axis artifacts causing a perfectly in tune piano to sound (on some of the notes) to sound out of tune - you have to be really careful on how you place the pair. We have had better luck using the omni 183's as room mikes.

Put the 414 TL II's, in omni, up close. You will still get the room but the sound will be far far better than in the cardiod selection.

The Royer 121's are also great for smoothing out a so so piano. Luckily we dont have to worry about that since we have a german nine foot Stienway D.

Also know that the piano is probably the most difficult instrument to record well - it is a very harmonicly complex instrument.

[bnixon]

If you were to purchase two mics to get a great stereo piano recording what would they be and how would you place them?

Thanks for the feedback,
Brandon

[flattop100]

I'm not sure about recording, but I've had excellent success with the Barcus Berry piezo pickup in live situations. You get great sound and a ton of signal before feedback. The one thing I've noticed is that I have to roll off the high end--the pickup is right on the soundboard, and no one ever expects to hear the high transient sounds.

[michaelhoddy]

This will probably shock some people, but the best-quality, feedback free sound I have ever gotten live is with a pair of Crown PZM-6's, with one attached with gaffers tape down at the far end of the piano ( a 9' Steinway D and a 7' Steinway B in this case) , on the inside of the side facing the bass strings and pointing toward the pianist. The second mic is placed a little past the curve of the piano body on the right side toward the front, again taped to the inside side, at about a 35-45 degree angle from the pianist.

Pan them a little, and I always get a present, yet fairly natural sound that amplifies well, sounds full, and doesn't need huge amount of EQ.

[xstatic]

Try placing a small diaphragm condensor inside a foam pad (Often called a mouse) and lay it with the capsule directly above each sound hole.

[Audio aardvark]

Many fine suggestions in this thread and I would add the Neuman SM-2 to the soup.
This little stereo mic is very under apprecited and not that expensive for an old
tube mic. At our studio we use sm-2.414s. tlm 170s as well as 4012s. 4004.4003s.
A lot depends on the sound of your piano and what your looking for.
Do not be shy to try omni mics like the 4003. As always the best results come from
taking time to place your mics. It also helps to note the physical layout of the harp.
Pianos have "crossover" parts where the sound changes. Try to avoid these "hot"
zones. Have someone play a chromatic scale bottom to top slowly. Get your ears
over the hammers and you will hear the spots easily. Make sure you are not focusing
in on these areas. I should mention that sometimes we will use a pair of DX 77ds
but that sound is not for everybody.
Aardvark