How do you test mics? Monitors?

[wrave]

Hello everyone. I am soon to be going in to the store to do some serious comparison shopping for mics and monitors. I realize that testing monitors is done by listening to them. Duh? Did I read somewhere that I ought to take along a CD that I am very familiar with to listen to through the monitors? Any other tips in this regard?

I am also looking at mics. I have been prowling the forums for the past couple of weeks and see that mic selection depends on what is being recorded, voice, specific instruments like guitar and drums and strings all seem to require a specific mic from a lot of the postings I've read. Some folks swear by one brand/model for vocals and another for elec. guitar and still another for acoustic guitar. I am looking for something that will be as general purpose as possible. So I have narrowed my choices to the following, the Rode NTK, the BLUE Baby Bottle, the C3000 and the Studio Proj. C3. How would you guys with more experience test these?

Thanks for any help you can offer.

[blacko3788]

I don't want to stear you in a wrong direction here with monitors, so make your dicision on what is fact. The purpose of the studio nearfield monitor is to mix/track your sound as precise as it sounds to the human ear without any coloration from the monitor...correct? So when you add reverb to the high frequency you hear exactly that. This also applies to eq and mic placement and ect.

There are some great monitor manufacturing companies out there that make killer monitors for just a hair under 5 grand....yes for two little speakers. These speakers sound great meaning that what you hear is really what you are mixing in your studio. Then there are other companies who sell monitors on the success of their name alone. These companies have made other great products in the music industry and tried..yes I say tried to make a monitor....I will not mention any names, they know who they are.

The CD thing may be a good idea but remember you will be listening to a cd where you'll hear little things that you've never heard before. That may or may not be a good thing to you. If you trust the sales staff at Sweetwater you will hear over and over again about the great sound of the Mackie HR824 nearfield.

In an earlier shoot out headed by Alexander Jenkins at sweetwater Mackie was compaired to Genelic speakers costing 2 to three times the amount of Mackies. These speakers are not Genelics nor will they be in the same class but the almost same sound for alot less coin....it's your call.

Tannoy also makes good monitor and sweetwater sells many of them along with many other good monitor names. But as you can see I'm sold on the Mackie sound. When I listen to a project that I've mixed on the Mackies I hear nearly the same sound on lesser quality stereo speakers...and this is what you want in a monitor.

As far as microphones....I see your willing to spend around a grand. The mics you've mentioned are good....do your own shoot out when you visit Sweetwater. The Neumann TLM 103 for around 9 hundred is a great mic and low self noise.....you might also want to concider a royer ribbon mic...they can be used on vocals, micing guitar cabs, drum overhead, and brass instruments with ease. That is going to be my next mic in my studio.

[Asgardian]

Monitors are definately important. Yes take a CD, but make sure it's a CD you have mixed and not a mastered one. I worked in a Stufio that had Mackies, Genelecs 29,30 and 31, Tannoys, KRK's and dare I say it NS-10's. As far as value for money the Mackie's win hands down, crisp top end and the bottom has more balls and punch than everything other than the Genelec 31's. If you have a small setup try and get the Mackies everything people say about them is true, God only knows why they don't cost thousands. It's pointless spending $5000 for nearfields if you only have a home studio.

AS far a Mikes go, try hiring out a few, record a few diferent instruments and voices on them and then make your pick. I reakon that you should throw the AKG 414 and Sennheiser 441/421 in there aswell. They're ugly looking bastards but if it's all purpose you want they're in every studio around the world for a reason...affordable and relyable and sound great. AKG414 is great for everything from Vocals, piano and acoustic instruments (guitar to orchestral), overheads; the Sennheisers are great for some vocals, brass, bass, drums (kick/toms), percussion,etc. You'll be able to get all three aswell for under $1000.

[wrave]

Thanks Blacko and Asgardian.

I do hear HR824 over and over and over and not just at Sweetwater either! I think I am afraid to listen to them because I'll probably end up buying them and every penny I save on one component of my home setup gives me more buying power in another area. I know the HR624 has a six inch mid-range versus the 8 in. mids in the 824s. Has anyone compared these two?

It also makes sense to take some of my mixes instead of just a commercial CD...although it might be better to hear my own work over good monitors for the first time in the comfort of my own home where if I faint I won't hit any sharp corners!

I am not sure I'll have the opportunity to take a mic or two home to test before buying but that makes a lot of sense. I was told that I could bring back anything that I was dissatisfied with and I will if necessary. And I am not looking to spend a grand on the mic, I think if I were, I would probably go for the BLUE Dragonfly. But I am wanting to find something that will do a good job on acoustic guitar and flute too if possible. Right now I think I'd rather have a mic that is less clean than it is mellow, a little more in the bass and mids than towards the higher frequencies. That's why the Studio Projects C3 sounds appealing and for the price, I might buy two of them for sterio micing.

I have been checking several forums for info these past few days and I realize there are a few hundred message chains trying to get info on monitors and mics. I just want to thank you guys for taking the time to respond to yet another one. I WILL make sure I take some of my own work when I go to listen to the monitors and if possibly I'll try (at home) before I buy a mic. Thanks again!

[SteveR]

I used to test hi end audio stuff with a John Schofield Jazz CD. If you get a reasonably modern one then the chances are the engineers have been stretched to the limit with allow all the dynamics through...

Definately take some familiar but not a compressed commerical mix of anything. Go for the dynamic stuff. Jazz and Classical (although classicaly doesn't do drums (transients) very well).

I have a Rode NT2 as my main bedroom studio mic and rate it highly for most low and high pressure sound sources.

Compare lots of mics...

Good luck


SteveR

[wrave]

I went in to the store give the "ear test" to some monitors last weekend. I was dissappointed in that I didn't really get to hear anything but the Mackie HR824s. I had hoped to hear them against a pair of passives pushed by an Alesis RA 300 but that comparison was not in the cards.

I have spent hours reading the forums and prowling the manufacturer's sites for tech specs of most of the popular monitors I see folks using. I finally made a decision this week to buy a pair of Alesis Monitor 1 mk II actives. I have not heard these monitors but the specs look very good on them.

I have to be honest, the Mackie's sounded good, I was surprized at the amount of bass emanating from them. I had come to expect a less colored sound basically because I read the term "reference monitor" in a lot of the forum posts and that makes me think the sound would be less "musical" although sonically "clear" all across the spectrum.
Since I have little experience with "pro" quality gear (I've been using a "bookshelf" sterio to listen to my mixes up to this point) I don't know what to really look for in a monitoring system other than what I've learned from reading. I hope my choice to buy the Alesis is a good one but not having much to compare them with I expect I'll be satisfied. I guess if I am not I can take them back and try something else.

Has anyone heard these and if you have what is your thoughts?

I also decided on the AKG C300B. I had thought about the NTK and the Baby Bottle but I decided to use the money elsewhere and instead am picking up the Waves Native Power Pack to give me some options I don't have now.
I think I was a little afraid of the other two mics because I am recording at home and with what I have already I pick up stuff like my cat jumping off of the washing machine back in the utility room and the house poping and thumping as it settles. Outside of moving the studio (buying another house?) there's probably not much that can be done for those sorts of things. Please don't suggest I get rid of the cat. He's my Bud! He's ended up starring on more than one or two takes I've recorded!

Thank you everyone for your help.

So, I am excited. New toys and lots to learn. I am looking forward to it!!!

[Scott Gould]

If you haven't bought that C3000 yet, consider the C4000b. It is definitely a "mellower" sounding mic, but not at the expense of clarity (i.e. not 'cloudy'). The switchable polar patterns give it flexibility. As far as monitors; I used the Mackies for a couple of years, and I think they are about the best in their price range. I did replace them recently with a pair that cost more than twice as much, but if that's not in your budget, the Mackies are a nice choice.

Scott

[wrave]

I think I must've set some kind of record for spending my tax return. Deposited on Friday and the account was empty by noon on Saturday!

OK, here's what happened. Before looking at mics I was giving a lot of consideration to a preamp and/or mixer and mics to get my input levels up. My Sweetwater sales rep told me to just go for the mic first that I might not even need a pre or mixer if I had a good mic. I was kinda floored at that since it seemed he was talking himself out of a sale but he was totally right.

Scott, sorry I didn't get your response until just now so I came home with the C300B. Ummmm, it's amazing the difference between my AT822 and this new mic. One of the biggest problems I had before was that I could never get enough input level with the 822 or the dynamic mics I had available. I always ran the Digi001's preamps at max just to get anywhere near the signal strength that the manual suggests I ought to be at when I record. This is no longer the way it is. I have backed the preamp off quite a bit.

The mic sounds very full to me. I don't mean to sound like I am the kind of guy that is never satisfied but while in the store I had some strong recommendations to the BLUE Baby Bottle and I now want to add this to my arsenal...in a few months. I LIKE what I am recording with the C300B and wish I were home today instead of sitting here in the office. I got lot's to do!!! (at home.)

For monitors, I brought home a pair of Event PS6s. Again, thanks to the guys at Sweetwater. They suggested these (they'd just gottem some more in) and costing only a few dollars more than what I was planning on buying "sound unheard" I am sure they gave me another good steer. I haven't had a lot of time as yet with these but there is a lot of improvement over what I was using before. I really had no experience with reference monitors so anything I plugged in was bound to sound good to me. Now I want to restart my whole project from scratch. But it's going to be so much fun I don't mind that.

I also picked up a copy of Waves Power Pack and although I haven't done anything with it just yet, I cannot wait to get the tracks redone (at a much higher quality this time) because I know I am going to have something to be proud of now.
So thanks everyone for your help. This "newbie" really appreciates it. Now, where can I ask some questions about mastering with Waves? ;-)

[wrave]

He's baaaacckk!

Hi everyone. I am very happy with the new additions to my home studio but the increased response from both the mics and the monitors have brought out a problem that I am trying to solve.

I now have a piercing upper frequency signal from the flute I am recording and I want to find a way to reduce that without sacrificing any more of the actual sound quality of the instrument. I haven't been able to nail down the actual frequency that is causing this but it is in the mid to upper frequencies somewhere. I can reduce it somewhat with eq but it seems that I am also reducing a lot of the "life" of the instrument. Has anyone had to deal with something like this and if so, how did you fix it?

Since acquiring the C3000B (notice I got ALL the zeros in this time) I have also added an AT4033. The 4033 seems to pickup the higher freqs a little stronger so I have been mostly using the C3000B.

This morning, I had a brain storm. (Watch out!) I have mostly been recording the flute mono thru the 3000B like I said, but I was thinking about going all out and recording using both of the new mics plus using my Blue Tube and using a couple of dynamic mics I have and recording 4 tracks at one time and then seeing if I can get a better sound by mixing these.

Is this a crazy idea or does it sound sensible? At the very least, I thought I might set this up and do a couple of test tracks to see how it sounds.

Is this how you guys with more experience than I check out your equipment so you can decide on the best way to record whatever sounds you're trying to capture?

Oh, so you will know my capabilities, here's a list of my equipment, software and plugins...

Digi001
PTLE 5.1
Blue Tube pre
C3000B
AT4033
AT822 sterio mic
3 dynamics
Waves Native Power Pack
Ozone
Sound Forge 5.0
Auto-Tune RTAS
Acid Pro
Fruity Loops

Please let me know if you think I am on the right track to reducing the shrillness of the flute. Thanks in advance.

[SteveR]

Sounds like it might be something to do with the flute itself.

There is a eq called Notch Filtering which has a very very small bandwidth. This is good for problematic frequencies. Either that or use a parametric eq with an adjustable bandwidth (Q). Make the bandwidth small and run the eq around -8 (or plus 8)db and then change the frequency around the place you think it is hissing. If you are pulling too much life out of it with eq then you may find that the Q value is too high or you are attenuating it too much...

Flutes recorde well pointing a mic down at a 45degree angle from above and in front of the player with a good distance of around a foot or more. This presents problems with certain room types as 12" mic'ing will record more of the room than most people want. Try the above technique in a different room and make sure that the mic isn't pointing towards any boring sounding walls...

SteveR

[wrave]

Thanks SteveR. I will raise the mic up and back some and see it that makes a difference. I have tried to find the offending frequency but haven't yet been able to locate it. This makes me think it may have more to do with the room. If I had been trying to sterio mic I would be wondering if this isn't a phase thing. But since I was mono micing I know the room acoustics might be boosting more than a single freq. that the mic picks up but that I do not hear as I play the flute. Certainly relocating the mic in relationship to the instrument (and to the whole room too!) is worth a try. Thanks for your ideas.

[wrave]

Over the weekend I tried a couple of things differently than I had been doing. For one, I did relocate the C3000B. Then, to give myself some options, I set up two dynamic mics in an X-Y pattern and recorded them into a sterio track simultaneously with the condenser. Now I have phase problems! But, if I can ever get enough time to sit and play with things I am sure I will get the phase problems fixed.

I guess I've just got a lot to learn!

[levon]

parev asgardian,hye es?

good points guys.

[Lynn B]

Hi i am new to this forum. I went to an audio seminar years ago. I learned
more in one hour at that seminar from a manufacturer that was very
objective. Here is an example: How can you evaluat a speaker or mic
if you don't put your ear where that mic is? Another fact. This is in reguard to psycoacoustics. The human ear can only compare two sounds
acurately if the sounds are less than 15 seconds apart. Try this for evaluation purposes. Record someone's voice on a flat response mic, preferably an an omni, to eliminate proximity effect, then play it back
with out any EQ, through any speaker, and if you can have two different
speakers to compare, with a speaker switch, just be sure the sound out
put is the same volume on each speaker. I worked in a high-end audio
store years ago and the differences between speakers was incredible
using this method. I suppose there are as many opinions as people. But
being objective takes a lot of the hype out of your quest for accuracy. From experience I would say that the manufacturers that have
been around at least 30 years have something going for them. I will
mention 2 for the record in power amps. McIntosh, and Crown. I can
make some recommendations on mics, and speakers also. Thanks for
listening. Lynn Blakely an old tech

[wrave]

Welcome aboard!

Thanks Lynn. Your tips make sense to me. Especially the idea of putting your ear in the position of the mic. How else would you know what the mic is picking up? It is a little difficult, running a one man studio, to be both the performer and the engineer simultaneously. I think I need to find another afficianado in my area to give me a little assistance and "another ear".

[Lynn B]

Hi WRave:
You are correct. Lets thing objectivly then. For one thing, the musician
doesn't even hear the instrument where the mic is normally positoned.
Try having the musician or in the case of a ensemble the manager or
person who has the last word, have him listen to the sound your getting.
Remember the customer is the one you want to please. Experiment with
different mics, and positions, and distance from the instrument, depend-
ing on the room. The closer you mic the less room effect you will have. I
suspect that if an instrument is miked close especially acoustic that you
will hear things a lot of people never hear without being the musician
I know you have heard a band concert in a gym, have you ever heard a
Speaker reproduce the Big Bass Drum, and did it sound like it did in that
gym. See what i mean the real world. I may get criticized but when it comes to speakers I like several but you are the one that has to choose.
Try what i said about recording a person. Mic them in a dead environment
at a distance of 6 feet, then when you play the recording listen to the
speaker at the same distance. Bye the way if you are listening to the
recording and then playing it back a few seconds later it should sound the
same. Now play the recording on any speaker you want and you will hear
the difference easily just be sure the volume in the same, every time.
Happy Hunting Maybe you won't have to spend as much as you thought.
Lynn Blakely Lynns Electronics, repair amps mostly

[treidm]

Ok listen to this.....
For an all around mic that can do everything, and with EQ can be tailored to sound as good as most any vocally tailored mic, there is only one mic to get! The one and only AKG C414B-ULS, this is the one mic that can do it all!!!! Monitors in low price range. I'll say Tannoy Reveal active,
Event 20/20bas or PS8's, upper end, Genelec. Monitors are more of a taste thing! Your ears will tell you! For an all around do it all mic, there is no question, AKG C414B-ULS! Let me say that again, AKG C414B-ULS!
:) Reid

[MichaelS]

I feel you pain there man, i really do. It never dawned on me till I was trying to set unity gain on the mackie that there wasn't enough of me to be in 2 rooms at the same time. I tried pointing my security camera at the board while I was palying and trying to look at the monitor to see where the lights were and all that did for me was give me a crick in my neck. My only other alternative was to go over to my neighbors house and ask him to come twist a knob for me. The look i got was rather skeptical (I am as you know that crazy dude that burned all his furniture and surely igniting humans isn't too far off the mark for me), but he came over anyway and helped me out. Almost knocked me over getting out of there too... I'm starting the artwork for my 1st cd and can't wait to get started on the music for the 2nd one but I really need a 2nd person in there with me.....

[levon]

yes i agree on the akg414 b uls,thats why i didnt buy the akg414 tlii not because it was not good enough,but because the akg 414buls is the workhorse of all trades.
akg 414 b-uls is my favorate too,and some other mic will be an others favorate.but somehow i cant get enuogh of having more mics.

[bentropy]

I'm an aspiring sound recordist/designer/musician, but I've learned a little from books, classes, and personal experimentation. I have a suggestion about the irritation you are describing in the flute recording.
Of course, the first things to check are the mic choice, the distance of mic to instrument, and walls to mic and instrument, mic position, etc. EQ and processing are often best avoided if you can; less in the signal chain the better and less processing the more natural and full/clear the sound. But one thing you may or may not know is the basics of EQing. Here is a technique to find freqs you want to emphasize (by boosting) or reduce (cutting the gain). First listen and with your ears focus in on the bad or good you want to hit. With a parametric, choose a quite narrow Q, then make a generous boost (not clipping though), sweep around the frequency listening for where the irritation (in this case) gets worse. When you find it, decrease the gain below unity, maybe widen the q, and compare eq off/on. Did you get it? Make subtle adjustments of gain, cue, freq.
A great place to look for irritation is around 4khz. Almost always lowering this area narrowly works well, but don't paint by numbers: use your ears. Try boosting it and listen to how annoying 4k is! Like babies whining, finger nails on chalk board, etc. Lowing this lets you boost other stuff, esp highs, without making things too shrill.

You might also try some gental compression. I find this can mellow and stablize a sound. It is best for evening out the pitch range of a recording or signal. Some pitches may be too soft and others pop out too much, because of the instrument, or the room, etc. So compression can reduce this. A good tube or opto also can warm things, even dulling them if you over-do it, so used sparingly it can smoothen irritation or shrillness.
hope this helps, Ben

[wrave]

Ben, thanks very much for the very helpful tips. I've kinda done this and it has helped me to fix some of the problem. I've got a copy of Ozone and it lends itself to this "sweeping" the frequency spectrum very well. I don't have a very good grasp of compression yet but will look into that some more after reading your post. If nobody has yet said it, "Welcome to the forum!"