converters

[tomron72]

Greetings.I have an Alesis Masterlink and a Mackie HDR24/96. My question is:Would I experience a noticeable improvement in fidelity if I were to purchase an Apogee Rosetta and use its converters instead of the ones in the aformentioned machines? I work by myself, so I only need to record stereo pairs, however I must use the Mackie D/A converters to send to my analog board. I would appreciate all opinions! Thanks.

[ODARELLMC]

I've had this discussion before with brad here at sweetwater, according to him apogee doesnt make the d/a rosetta anymore. you'll have to go with one of the other apogee converters like a px100se. which is really expensive, but if you want apogee this is the way you'll have to go.

[Scott Gould]

I just picked up a Lucid 9624 D/A to use instead of the converters in my d8b for monitoring while mixing. It is a definite improvement, and it even has a headphone jack.

Scott

[tomron72]

Thanks, guys for your kindness in replying to my question. Since I am a hermit, any advise is appreciated. If I could ever help you, I will try!

[synesthesia]

there's certainly a lot to choose from out there. the lucid 2496's (AD, and DA) sound great. very good dollar value too. it's pretty subjective, but i think the apogee's sound somewhat compressed, and lack a little in the bottom. the lucid sounds more pleasing, but is not necissairly a 'transparent' piece. you may want to look at dB tech if you're looking for un-hyped audio. if you're looking for a glassy kind of sound, maybe Prism. there are many more out there, and as always, ymmv.

-stef

[tomron72]

Thanks,"synesthesia" for your advise. How did you get to compare all of those converters? Or did you read reviews? At any rate,see ya.

[synesthesia]

hey tomoron! i think myself very lucky in the sense that i work for a company called long and mcquade in canada. since i'm supposed to sell the stuff, they're pretty flexible with regards to 'product knowledge'. i have yet to do a controlled shoot out (i'm hoping to do Apogee, Lucid, RME, Motu, Mytek, Tango, M-Audio) but to answer your question, yes i have actually heard this crap.

with regards to the more esoteric stuff (prism, dB tech), though i haven't had the boxes in my own hands, i've listened to some tests others have recorded and drawn conclusions from there. closer to my point of purchase (likely fourth quarter), i hope to obtain some demo units (though probably not dB tech, or prism) and participate in some more controlled listening.

sorry i couldn't be of more help

-stef

(p.s. i have read many reviews, but tend to trust my ears first ;) )

[tomron72]

Greetings-thanks for the info on the converters. Another guy said that the Lucid 24/96 D/A converters are better than the Mackie D8B ones. Thus, the Lucid would also be superior to the Mackie HDR-24/96 because I would assume that they are the same converters as the D8B. Converters are important to me because I use a Massenburg 8200 eq, a Summit DCL 200 compressor, and a Summit TPA 200A mic-pre. I'd hate to have a great analog sound deteriorated by A/D converters. I currently use the converters in the Alesis Masterlink. Feel free to chat any time! Thanks. tomron72

[The Radman]

I have the same equipment. My signal chain is as follows:
analog board direct outs to a Tube interface per channel to Mackie A I/O cards {6}into a pair of Mackie HDR24/96's for basic 48 channels of tracking. Nice and warm, and plenty of headroom. Mixdown and Mastering signal chain:
Main outs of console to compression, to a DBX Quantum II mastering processor to Masterlink via AES/EBU digital. I track @ 24bit 44.1 or 48khz and master to 24bit 96khz on the Masterlink. The fidelity of the digital to digital transfer from Quantum II to Masterlink is AMAZING! The end result is BROADCAST READY. No compromises, no artifacts, and no latency, NO Kidding!. The Quantum converters are a significant improvement over the Masterlink's and better than the Digidesign 888 I/O, and equal to anything Lucid, Apogee, MOTU, etc... have made. I think at this stage of the process, anything less than this conversion is shortchanging the potential of the Masterlink CD24 format.
Are YOU ready for Radio?
Peace Love Electric RAD :cool:
The Radman.

[BradLyons]

Tom,

The Mackie box certainly sounds very good, as do the converters on the Alesis Masterlink. IMHO, there are (3) types of converters out there.... those that sound very clear and pristine, those that actually add "color" to the sound such as Apogee, and those that just stink (insert a couple of brands here! haha). Fortunately, Alesis and Mackie do not fall into this last category, but the reason guys buy Apogee is they just have a certain sound. In order to have Great Digital, you must have Great Analog. This is why Apogee is so expensive compared to other converters, but they also sound amazing. There is a line that we carry of converters that sound great and are very affordable called RME, I highly recommend them. However, I also will say that they are not a replacement for Apogee... only an affordable option. Building a converter is not that tough, well...unless you have me build one it is!! :-) It's what is put into the analog section that really makes up the product and this is something that requires a LOT of tedious work to do it right.

With that said if you really want to improve on your overall sound, you may want to consider the new Apogee AD16 and DA16.... or maybe a Rosetta for tracking and (2) DA16's for playback....you'll hear the difference. You could also go with (3) RME 8IO's...they will still sound good.

[tomron72]

I printed all of the info that you gave me and it's interesting to hear different opinions. The reason that I'm paranoid about converters is because I used to use a Tascam DA-30 and 2 DA-88s and I used to think that I was losing my hearing; the sounds I was playing sounded noticeably different on playback. Now with the Masterlink and Mackies, there is a definate improvement, but one always wonders if the sound is good enough ( or am I just a machine-freak-addict)? Thanks for the advice. I'm moderately advanced in audio engineering, but my only talents are composing, arranging, and lead guitar playing. I need practice in mixing. Thanks again and feel free to keep in touch!

[ODARELLMC]

I'VE JUST RECENTLY READ A REPORT THAT THE PROCESSOR FOR THE CONVERTERS FOR THE RME ADI-8 DS ARE SUPERIOR TO THAT OF THE APOGEE AD-8000. INFACT THE CONVERTER CHIP IN THE RME IS MADE BY THE SAME MANUFACTURER AS THE APOGEE, AND THE RME CONVERTER IS AN IMPROVED VERSION. IT WAS NOTED THAT THE RME CONVERTER CHIP DELEVERED 3db BETTER VALUES IN THD AND S/N THAN THE APOGEE CHIP. I WOULD SAY IF YOU DONT NEED ALL THE FANCY DISPLAYS AND ADVANCED I/O OPTIONS, GO WITH THE RME. I READ THE SHOOTOUT BETWEEN THE TO CONVERTERS ON THE WEB FROM A GERMAN BASED MAGAZINE CALLED PMA(PRODUCTION MAMAGEMENT). BRAD..WHATS YOUR TAKE ON THIS?

[BradLyons]

Would you please email me any information you have on this? I would certainly and highly disagree that the RME are better than the Apogee. Like I've said, the RME stuff does sound really good... but Apogee is Apogee. Thanks! brad_lyons@sweetwater.com

[Ted]

Another thing to consider...Brad had said "To have great digital, you must have great analog". The RME may use newer version of the A/D chip, but that's only a small part of the overall sound of the converter. All of the analog circuitry, the clock (this is a HUGE part of the quality of the converter and Apogee's low-jitter clock is one of the best out there) and the power supply (open up a Rosetta and take a look inside...the thing is massive) all contribute significantly to to the sound of a converter. That's why some of the older high-quality 16- and 20-bit converters still sound better than many of the new, cheap 24-bit converters that out-spec them on paper. Obviously, the audio quality of a converter is a somewhat subjective thing, and some people may prefer the RME stuff over the Apogee, but I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say it sounds better just because the A/D chip inside specs out 3 dB better.

-Ted

[synesthesia]

actually the RME does use a newer dsp chip than the 8000. i believe it's an AKM5392. the 8000 uses a 5391 - not that there's a big difference, i think as far as the technicals go, FIR's and PLL's are similar, the chip is just a little cleaner.

i can't confirm if the Rosetta or PSX use the same chip or not though....


tomoron - i think you'd be happy with any of the brands mentioned here, though i can't speak to how much imprvement you'd notice over your current i/o setup, as i have not used an HDR yet! i'm not sure if the stock i/o's in the HDR are the same as the D8B, but it's something i will look into - and if that's true, i think you'd find a noticable difference!


-stef

[synesthesia]

Originally posted by Ted
All of the analog circuitry, the clock (this is a HUGE part of the quality of the converter and Apogee's low-jitter clock is one of the best out there) and the power supply (open up a Rosetta and take a look inside...the thing is massive) all contribute significantly to to the sound of a converter.

-Ted

i'm not trying to play the devil's advocate, but how do you know apogee's internal clock is one of the best? i've looked at lots of specs, and the apogee is nowhere near tops (claimed <20ps jitter - benchmark media claims <9ps internally... for those of us not so mathematically inclined, that's less than half...) there are a few different ways of measuring jitter, so this would come into play as well - it's not often manufacturers describe their test methods, so even if apogee DID 'spec' the best, i would not be so brave as to say they have 'one of the bests clocks out there' without conducting tests of my own! i do agree, though, that the analog section plays a huge role!

syncing in another thing to remember. it's very important that, when transferring digitally the source syncs tightly with the destination - commonly in our profession wordclock is used, though in film/broadcast many other methods (superclock etc) are common.

-stef

-stef

[BradLyons]

Specs are specs.... but actually using these in real professional environments and having feedback with some of the biggest engineers with some of the best ears in the industry out there proves many times over and over that Apogee is a superior product. I personally use Apogee because I feel it sounds and performs better than most everything else out there.

[synesthesia]

performance is not the issue here, neither is what you personally use...

how do you know apogee's internal clock is 'one of' the best? would you use it over an external sync generator? why?

-stef

[synesthesia]

out of curiosity, what have you compared to apogee to aid you in this conclusion? maybe it's just my ears but i'd take any of the prism stuff over apogee any day! (not to challenge your ethics, but does sweetwater even deal Prism, or Weiss, or any of that stuff?)

-stef

[BradLyons]

I will also agree that the Prism converters sound great!! Personally, I do prefer the "sound" of the Apogee converters and will continue to use them reguardless..... other than the new Digidesign 192 I/O which I am told sounds as good or better than Prism...that remains to be seen eeerrrr heard. When you hook up an Aardsync II to an existing audio system, chances are it's going to sound better because of the establishment of an accurate and solid low-jitter clock. Even the best converters on paper can sound not so great if the digital sample word is not accurate and the fact is, many are not. Many tests have been done by other professionals with even more merits than myself and more times than not, chose the Apogee master clock for its rock-solid performance and stability. This is Aardvark's claim to fame, a great master clock... kind of like Apogee's claim to fame is converters that sound musical. The Apogee clock is also extremely good, but I still prefer the Aardsync as a master clock as well as many other pro's.

The fact is, not everyone needs to have the best options.... but there are those out there that don't want to mess with something new that may or may not do the job, they want something proven and depended on many times over. In the grand scheme of things, it's every little option and product that adds up to the end result. For many engineers out there, nothing less than the absolute best is satisfactory.... and we all have preferences to converters, pres, mics, etc too ;-) Personally, I am not a big fan of Avalon.... HOWEVER.... I know that it is one of the best product lines out there and I highly recommend this line. It's just my own personal choice as an engineer. I don't like chocolate ice cream that much, you might love it.... just personal preferences.

[synesthesia]

thanx for your input brad.

[Ted]

Stef-

I think you missed the point of my post. What I was saying was just because the RME converter uses a newer A/D chip, that doesn't necessarily make it a better converter. Likewise, it's not the clock alone that makes or breaks a converter, it's a number of factors. However, I do stand by my statement that Apogee's clock is "one of the best". I didn't say that it was the absolute best. I'm well aware that there are others that spec out a little better, and even though Benchmark's clock specs out with less than half the jitter of the Apogee clock, both specs are great...there are many clocks out there whose jitter is several orders of magnitude greater than Apogee's. I'd still clock to an external clock such as the Aardvark if possible. I haven't had the chance to run these tests myself, but I have heard many of the converters on the market. Audio Media magazine also did an exhaustive test recently where they compared several different clocks in several different situations, and the Apogee came a very close second behind the Aardvark AardSyncII. True, not every converter was represented. I personally haven't had the chance to hear the Prisms yet, and certainly wouldn't go so far as to say that they're better than Apogee...I know some people prefer one and some prefer the other, but I wouldn't be too surprised if I liked the Prisms more, considering their price.

-Ted

[ODARELLMC]

WHILE I COULDNT E-MAIL YOU THIS ARTICLE REGARDING THE APOGEE AD-8000 & THE RME ADI-8DS DIRECTLY, YOU CAN FIND IT AT WWW.RME-AUDIO.DE/ENGLISH. ON THE LEFT SIDE YOU'LL FIND A LIST OF RME PRODUCTS. CHOSE THE FOLDER FOR THE ADI-8DS. ON THE BOTTOM OF THE MAIN PAGE YOU'LL SEE THE LINK FOR THE REVIEWS, CLICK THE PMA ISSUE 5/2000. THIS IS A HEATED ISSUE I SEE I'M SURE THE REST OF THE VIEWERS WOULD BE INTEREST ON YOUR OPINION OF THIS ARTICLE.

[synesthesia]

ted: agreed, my friend. have you opened an RME up? they're using 4580's as op-amps... in case this isn't familiar, does Behringer ring a bell? *grins*

from that standpoint, i think i understand. we also adressed earlier on how subjective these comparisons are. just like anything else in the signal chain, mic, pre, dynamics, eq's... it's a matter of finding what's best for YOU. if there was one right answer, i think there would only be on brand of converter out there!

furthermore, i'm glad you have found something that works for you. and though you may have found the right answer for your sound, i would encourage others to entertain the possibility of other avenues, because apogee certainly is not the only box in their league.

happy mixing

-stef

[Ted]

No, I haven't had the chance to open an RME converter up. Even though they do use cheaper components than the Apogee, it seems to be very well engineered...enough so that it doesn't seem to make a difference. I looked at several reviews on RME's website...one seemed to favor the RME, one the Apogee, and both said they were very close. I haven't had a chance to try out the RME myself...considering the price difference, I'd certainly be very happy if it even approached the quality of the Apogee, let alone exceeded it. Since this is all so subjective, however, there will never be a "right" or "wrong" answer...like Stef said, it's a matter of finding what's right for you.

-Ted

[synesthesia]

i think it's very difficult to compare the ADI with any of the apogee stuff (i've heard it against a Rosetta). i thought the apogee sounded a little more 'refined' maybe? a much smoother, but IMO a less honest sound. more compressed and commercial, i think. the RME seemed much more dynamic to me, with substantially bigger bottom end. sounds very reactive - a faster converter, maybe. i didn't really like either... but it's very subjective stuff.

happy listening

-stef

[dan le]

When you first heard the Rosetta and the Masterlink, you will tend to think that the 2 are the same.
But the Rosetta has 2 things that a lot of other converters do not have:
1.accuracy: whatever you listen thru your board, during mix down, will be the same when you listen to your final mix, the 2 track mix that is. With the Masterlink, I had problems with the levels of different instruments. For instance, the strings will be fine during mix down, but will too low in the final mix. So I used to have to mix and remix, and remix and remix. You got the point?
2.more sustaining bass: I noticed right away after the first mix that the Rosetta gave me more sustaining bass than anything else I have used for mix down. I think that they use sub harmonics for this effect.
Otherwise, sound wise, and besides the accuracy, the Mid and the High is the same (I think) between the Rosetta and the Masterlink.
Besides, just look at the price differences. The Rosetta 96 costs more than the Masterlink. So what does that tell you? Brad said that he loves the sound of Apogee. So if you think about it, what music is all about, about sound isn't it?

[elsteve9]

Can someone pls. discuss how a converter and clock relate? I had thought that they were quite different things, and had their purposes worked out in my head, but maybe not...
Also: How are the CONVERTERS in the Aardvark stuff? Specifically the Q10. From what I understand, the unit itself sounds pretty good, based off of the merits of its clock alone.
Comments?

Thanks,

Stephen

[the]

ABSOLUTELY get the appogee roseta. Unlike most of these yahoos who give you advice that is non-comital or based on little experience - I say get the external converter - I did and yes you do notice a HUGE difference.