Please lend an ear.

[digdrum1]

Hey all. I am in need of your ears regarding a recording project. This is my first album I've recored and I consider myself a newby to engineering so keep that in mind. Plus, I am the drummer of this band so my objectivity is out the window....lol.

This entire song was recorded in a converted bathroom in a Manhattan apartment...yes drums included...and yes it was tight. My friend owns a media company and was nice enough to lend me his server to put my tracks on.

Equipment:
Beta 52 in kick
57 on snare
Radioshack mics on the toms
Rode NT5's as over heads

Bass and organ was direct into an Avalon 737

Electric guitars (American Strat) were recorded with a single 57 on a 69 Fender Blackface.

Acoustic was an NT5.

Vox was an MXL V69.

http://www.mediaevolutions.com/Allison/Pretty%20Girl%20Rough%202%2016bit.mp3

[MrKeysAOO]

Ok so here it is:) It's difficult to critically listen to an MP3 just because the anti-aliasing produces an annoying effect in the high frequencies. However, with that in mind, good job. A couple comments: the drum sound isn't bad--good job with the kick sound--the imaging is a little loose; not bad, just a little awkward. The overall mix is good until the elec guit and organ come in, then it gets a bit cramed. Try not placing the two in the same place on the freq spectrum--use a less thick organ tone and give your guitar a little less whine and more body (less 10-12k, more low-end). Also, the whole track seems slightly harsh (again, MP3) are you using an aural stimulator? Try mixing a little warmer...get clarity and depth by cutting unwanted frequencies from the mids rather than trying to cover them up by adding highs.

[digdrum1]

I don't even know what an aural stimulator is.

Could you explain what you mean about the drum imaging being loose and how to correct it?

As far as the organ and guitar the idea was to have the listener run into a wall of sound as that what happens live...basically down your throat which I think I've accomplished. I could do some work on finding those instruments home a bit more.

I might cut a bit of the highs in the overheads but overall...in a CD format I'm sure the track is warmer then what you are hearing via stream. Remember that this was recorded in an apartment bathroom with inexpensive mics so it's not the best situation I have...lol.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Frugle]

that sounds pretty dang good to my virgin ears... something like that is my goal for the things I need to record...

[digdrum1]

Thanks frugal. I appreciate it.

[Hynek]

Originally posted by MrKeysAOO
Ok so here it is:) It's difficult to critically listen to an MP3 just because the anti-aliasing produces an annoying effect in the high frequencies.

Good! :D

[Hynek]

Douglas, I'm impressed!
If this is really your first serious attempt there's some engineering future ahead for you. Thanks for the lesson!

The sparse usage of reverb is a very nice idea. I'd personally tend to shape the space some thicker and more apparent espesially on the vocals. But maybe it sounds more "personal" like this which is also very pretty with a great voice like that. Did the mic turn out to be such a good match for her or did you have to EQ it out a bit? I assume it was routed through your 737 as well?

[digdrum1]

Hey Hynek,

Allison went through the 737. I boosted the low mids one click and the highs one or two clicks on the 737's EQ and used the compression in moderation.

That mic has impressed me considering it's a $300 mic. I have yet to be dissapointed with it.

Do you happen to hear anything else that I should work on? I took the first comments and wrote them down and will try them out this weekend. For example..I think the room works ok...what about the drum imaging? I just don't understand what that means I guess...lol...and since I'm the drummer I really want my drums to sound true...which I think they do but if I could make it better then I should.

[panhead]

nice

[MrKeysAOO]

Originally posted by digdrum1

Could you explain what you mean about the drum imaging being loose and how to correct it?



Again, the drum sound is quite good (especially given setup). You obviously have a good-sounding kit and you know how to make it speak. As for the imaging, my comment is more personal preference than anything. The overheads have a good stereo spread, which I like. The toms are spread a little bit far for my taste, I think I would like them a little more focused so they sound like they're all apart of the same instrument. The hat is really far left and the snare seems to kind of wash around (which you may not be able to help). I wouldn't mind if the hat was pulled back a little and the snare and hat were a little closer together. I think, over all, I just want to hear the kit more as one instrument (don't get me wrong, this is a complaint I have of a lot of mainstream recordings). Again, this is all very subjective so take it with a grain of salt. Good job, I look forward to hearing more!

[digdrum1]

Now I get it. That makes sense. Sometimes you have to tell me not to try to put the square peg into the round hole more then once....lol.

[Iplayinaband]

I am a beginner myself but that sounds damn good to me!

What interface are you using? Any outboard gear? Amplitube on the bass?

Sounds great! Good song too man...I don't usually like female rock singers but it was really nice..what's the name of the band?

[Brandon Hook]

You almost make me want to quit! Great job. :)

[djui5]

sounds full...which is great.

I'm not liking the snare....too dry..needs some verb....tom's sound almost like drum modules...guess it's the mics....might wanna put some verb on those also.
Vocals are ok..but should come up a db and cut back on the boxy effect.

Guitars are a little "cheezy" sounding...everything else is find for what it is.

[digdrum1]

The name of the group is the Allison Cipris Band.

The bass was just direct into the 737.

As far as the snare goes I appreciate the dry sound and that fact that it's still full and punchy without a lot of verb on it. This is just personal taste.

The toms sound like modules? As in a drum machine module? is that a good or bad thing? I thought they came out pretty good considering.

Could you explain what a "cheezy" guitar sound is? I'm not trying to be difficult but trying to understand since that is the sound my guitarist got out of that amp. I thought I captured it nicely.

[djui5]

If you like it..then it's great..

Personally I think the guitars sound kinda weak..sorta 80's ish......but that's a matter of opinion.

[digdrum1]

I'm glad you said that the guitars sound 80ish as that is the kind of sound we are going for. Our sound is totally influenced from the 80's and many groups from New York are following suit... although I can't say that I agree that the guitar sounds are weak....this could have something to do with the fact that I'm "in" the band too. If I were a stranger to this sound I might think the sounds were cheezy.....lol

[djui5]

You nailed it then :)...Nice work.

[Hynek]

Originally posted by digdrum1

As far as the snare goes I appreciate the dry sound and that fact that it's still full and punchy without a lot of verb on it. This is just personal taste.


It certainly is plus you're the drummer so I didn't want to expand on the drum sound too much since you know better. Perfectly honest, I don't enjoy the snare too much either. My description would be full and lacking punch ;) But I have to admit it goes with the toms well so it must have been artistic intention. Again, terrific job overall.
What is the 737 doing to the bass really? Do you use it for coloring or for compression?

[digdrum1]

The Avalon was used on the bass as basically the DI with fairly heavy compression. I don't think I had the EQ on as his bass sounded pretty good as is. I guess there is some coloration going on but I wasn't really going for that.

OK...so I got two guys who I respect on this forum not in love with the snare. One would like to hear some verb on it (which is a true possibility) and the other indicates the snare is full and lacking punch...which now that I listen to it again I can see why that was said. I would like to try to mess with the snare sound but the question is....how do I add verb AND punch? The reason I ask is because every time I add verb to a drum it seems to loose it's punch. Hence the reason I've fallen in love with the dry sound. Any tips would be appreciated.

[Hynek]

What I do is a combination of EQ to emphasize the fundamental freq. of the drum (which is practically always around 600Hz for snare, you do the research) and outboard compression with fast-to-medium attack (which can be very tricky for obvious reasons). Assuming you have both top and bottom head track you can play with the balance. Sometimes I don't even flip the phase on the bottom mic. May not be your taste if you're looking for natural sound though. The tension of the snares can do some trick too (not applicable if you've finished tracking).
I have absolutely no system in reverberating the snare. One thing for sure is that I find it absolutely crucial because the snare sets the space for the whole "band" in the song. I usually spend a lot of time over this task. What I do is try to find what I really like by going through different reverb types - sometimes the right thing is gated verb, sometimes it's hall, sometimes it's plate... sorry, I told you my work in this respect is pretty disorganized :) I also think you should always use your best reverb unit for the snare.
So that pretty much describes what my practice is with no intention to overdramatize my point of view.

[digdrum1]

Hey Hynek...do you use outboard verbs on your snare? Just curious as I have yet to get an outboard verb box.

[Hynek]

Yes, TC M3000, I have no better.

[MrKeysAOO]

One note on drum reverb: placeing the verb after a short-medium delay (many verbs do this with a "pre-delay") alows the innitial attack to sound withought being drowned in verb while still creating a "space" around the drum. This, like anything, requires experimentation as it can create a slapback effect if you're not careful.

[danhazer]

..sorta 80's ish......

Explain???? The '80's was the decade of the HUGE guitar sound. I'm talking about Van Halen, RATT, Dokken not to mention guitar geniuses like Steve Lukather, Vai and Eric Johnson.

The mix sounds great - by the way.

[digdrum1]

Thanks Dan. I think it's a just a personal taste thing is all. I like the guitar sounds I got. To me they sound pretty full. More modern guitar sounds are so intimate and in your face it sounds like the amp is in the room.....which is way cool.... perhaps that the difference?

So is it cold in Minnesota yet?

[danhazer]

It's frickin' freezing here in Minnesota.

I was actually calling into question Randy's comments about the guitars sounding weak and 80's-ish when the 80's was the decade of huge-guitar-decadence.

I thought the guitars in your mix sounds appropriate for the song.

[digdrum1]

I don't envy the weather out there.:scared:

[djui5]

Dan...I didn't mean the Ozzy type of guitars...but that corny pop type of guitars.....which turns out is what he's going for....so yes...it works.


Also...80's metal guitars were quite drenched in verb and lacking a lot of midrange.....to a lot of people this is "huge" sounding....but I never really thought so.

This is for another thread though...

[panhead]

ok
:classic:

[digdrum1]

"but that corny pop type of guitars"

OK...now I'm beginning to get confused ....are my guitar sounds "cheezy, weak or corny?" You are only allowed one bash on my guitarists sound....lol

What style guitar do you hear on this song?:D

[panhead]

it sounds fine if its the sound your looking for.
i like a cleaner sound, but that would not fit so is doesn't matter.

there is a saying anyone can improve on someone else's ideal
but it takes a true artist to create.
so keep it up

[djui5]

They're not that bad...this is all spiraling out of control...haha...didn't mean for all this. They work great for the song and what your trying to achieve...and that's all that matters. For being a first time recording it sounds great.....you should hear the first session I Engineered......intersting....I'll e-mail it to ya if you want...can't post it online though...I'm not sure what happened to the artist...and knowing my luck they got signed and I'd get sued for posting copyrighted material.

I agree with panheads last comment.....

[tchipman]

I really like the way your drums sound. I'm not a trained engineer but I know what I like. I don't see how you could do better with the equipment you mentioned. Your guitar player sounds like Skunk Baxter on Reeling in the Years. I'll bet you had a really good time putting it all together. Cheers
Tim

[digdrum1]

Thanks Tim. You know I never thought about Seth sounding like Baxter on Reeling but you're right. Good song too...Reeling.

[tchipman]

One more thing. when you ask for help on this forum the info you get back from a few of these guys is invaluable. I'm sure you already know that but I'd like to make sure that you professionals here on this forum are HIGHLY appreciated. I understand that this is your line of work and this is how you make your living. Your willingness to help us hacks out here is mindboggeling. I'm going to print some of this thread right now and go down stairs and do some work on my drums and guitars. Thanks guys, you know who you are! I also like the classy way they can critique the stuff we put up here to listen to.
Tim