Help me decide on some microphones [Archive]

spicyitaliano

05-26-2004, 01:56 AM

Studio construction is completed, furniture is in place, hardware and electronics are being installed, and the acoustic treatments go up in the next week. The last of my gear is coming in, one box at a time. It's starting to look really good. Thank you to everyone who helped me work things out in the past. I'll be sure to post information about the studio when everything is completed.

Until then, I've got to figure out my microphones. I've finally settled on a good drum set up with a few options. But my weakest link right now is a good vocal setup. I'm doing a lot of acoustic and pop music with some rock influences. Right now I've got a Great River MP-2NV and Avalon 737 on my front end for outboard pres. I'm in the need of some mics to use for all my vocal tracks. Some suggestions and guidance would be great!

So far, for LD condensers, I've got a matched pair of C414 TL-II's. Considering the tonal characteristics of this mic (what type of sounds do you get?), I need to look for another option for a vocal mic. The TL-II is pretty clean and not really warm, but more crisp and clear. Here's what I have in mind, along with some notes.

Neumann U87 - eye-candy, but there's better mics for the money, right? Not much of a variety from the TL-II.
Soundelux iFet7 - variable 2-in-one mic. But can I really get some warm, vintage sound from this thing?
Soundelux U195 - the reviews here seem to love this mic! It's a good difference from the TL-II, as well.

Any help from the mic experts would be great. Thanks all.
- Andy

djui5

05-26-2004, 04:11 AM

E49..

can you post pictures of the studio?:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

michaelhoddy

05-26-2004, 09:15 AM

I haven't heard the E49, but it sounds like a good possibility to consider. Also, the ifet and the U195 will both be contrasts to your TLII's, and useful ones at that. You're on the right track. I think your ears and budget will be the next things to consider.

spicyitaliano

05-26-2004, 10:00 AM

Randy and Michael, just who I was hoping would respond! :banana:

Ok, let me lay down some details. Randy -- I would get the E49 in a heartbeat, but there was a reason for not posting that -- bud-joo-tay. As for the studio pictures, I'll do a big post with pictures when it's all done. :)

So my choices have been narrowed down based on a few things. First, I need a mic that fits my styles and genres, contrasts to me TL-II's, and is an all around sweet-ass mic (That's where I need some real suggestions;) )

Are you both against the U87? I've always been under the impression that this is a must-have mic that works at least good on everything. But recently I've seen opposing reviews. I've also been under the impression that the U87 works incredibly well with the Avalon 737, of which I also own. So what are your opinions?

Now recently I've seen a lot of praise for the Soundelux stuff. What is it about these mics that make them stand out from the crowd so much? Do they give an extra warmth over other mics, I guess FET plays a role in that.

I'm a bit lost - any direction would be great. ;)

michaelhoddy

05-26-2004, 10:48 AM

I'm not against the U87, and it does indeed play very well with the Avalon. I would never suggest that anyone pay the full street price for one, as there are a lot of mics that cost less than the $2200 or so that a U87 costs new that do a better job. If you can find one used for around $1350, which incidentally is what I paid, then it's in the running.

The only conceivable reason I'd tell you to jump for the 87 is because of name recognition. Yes, it is a useful mic, and yes, you can get good sounds out of it, but it's also instantly recognizable to musicians off the street and industry folks. You will get more vocal sessions if you have a U87 in the mic closet, even if it doesn't end up getting used. If you get Klaus Heyne to modify it, then it becomes a great mic. But that's more money.

I'm still in hearsay land with regard to the ifet7, but I haven't heard a single person say anything other than the fact that this mic beats the U87 at its own game if you're after that sound. As an added bonus, it does the U47FET thing as well, and costs less.

So it's kind of up to you in that regard. Name recognition versus bang-for-the-buck. There are conceivable reasons to go either way. Just don't pay full street for the 87!

As for Soundelux? I think they make great mics at reasonable prices. High quality, great engineering, often distinct improvements on the original designs. Neumann? My feelings about most of their current line-up are well-known (all the Neumanns I own are old, out of production models, and there's a reason for that). Basically, I think they make good mics that cost too much. There's nothing in the Neumann line-up that's bad through and through, but there are almost always alternatives from other companies that sound as good or better and cost the same or less. The TLM-103 is perhaps the only Neumann mic that I feel is priced competitively. Is that heresy?

michaelhoddy

05-26-2004, 10:52 AM

One more comment for the U87 that perhaps Randy can add to: Very occasionally, it will be magical on something. I've found that's more often the case with the Avalon 737 and the right male vocalist. But even when it's not, you can usually twist knobs and get a very useful sound. One of its strengths is that it takes EQ very well.

spicyitaliano

05-26-2004, 11:41 AM

Michael, your thoughts on the U87 are justfied, and I agree with you. There is such an image that the Neumann line and the U87 portray that make people get interested. Ironically, I rarely see them on entire vocal recording sessions. I think I'll take your advice on the U87 and only pick one up used. I'm on a budget, and I can't indulge in mics that won't be the absolute best for the money and for my needs.

That said, how would you approach this? Maybe I could have Sweetwater let me audition a few before I buy.

djui5

05-26-2004, 04:07 PM

Yeah...what Michael said about the u87 is very true.

It is one of the most versatile mics on the planet..and is probably the most reconized mic ever made.

Not only that it does pair very well with a 737...especially on male vocals which is why so many rap people use it...if you do female vocals with it you might need some mild de-essing but it will sound good.

I hate to say this but having a u87 and a 737 will get you work..just because you have them

And another vote for the u87s versatility....to be honest you can throw it up on just about anything and get a good sound at least..if not a great sound.

It's an awesome mic to place about 3-5' away from a kick....with another mic inside.....bonus.

I'm sure sweetwater wouldnt' mind shipping you one....if not then you can rent one from dream hire for $35 a day...

And as much as I'd like to say get a different mic because I know theres plenty of mics out there that can handle the job, I do think every studio needs a u87 and a 737...if only to just say you have it.

I really think you should get a u87.....

P.S.,
I haven't heard the E49 yet either....but I've heard rumors that its a great mic....

spicyitaliano

05-26-2004, 06:38 PM

Thanks Randy. I needed that extra boost in deciding on one for sure.

I hate to do this to you, but I need to ask you one more question. So much has been said about the Soundelux microphones. They're much more of a vintage sound and will yield a very classic warm character for all styles. Considering that I don't have a very big mic locker, maybe I should consider something that adds variety to my C414 TL-II's. I have been told that the U87 has many similar traits like the TL-II, and so the sonic options are less. A U195 would spare me over $1000 and may provide better results. Maybe not, I'm not sure.

I really understand your point about the image that the U87 carries with it. That's what I said in the first post about that mic. But when the recording session is all over with and done, will I be happy with the sound? Or will I have preferred something a bit different? Knowing that I don't have an unlimited budget, I need to get something that I can really use day in and day out for a lot of things.

Thanks for dealing with me! :p

djui5

05-26-2004, 09:22 PM

no dealing with you.....

It's my pleasure to answer your questions

Given everything I still think you should get a u87....you can use the money you make from projects to get some soundelux mic's later...:D

I'd defeniatly put soundelux next on the list....

I wouldn't really say the u87 and the 414's sound similar....I've never thought that.

michaelhoddy

05-26-2004, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by djui5

I wouldn't really say the u87 and the 414's sound similar....I've never thought that.

They don't sound similar, but at the same time, both are fairly bright mics. The U87 has the characteristic Neumann midrange bump, which the TLII doesn't have, and the U87's presence peak is a bit lower in the HF, and a little less of a straight-out top end boost than the TLII.

Neither is "warm" in the sense that, say, a U47 is. But neither one is as "cold" as say an AT 4050.

So they're not similar, but they're not opposites either, if that makes sense.

djui5

05-26-2004, 11:42 PM

Very well stated

spicyitaliano

05-27-2004, 11:54 AM

Alright guys. Based on your inputs, I'm going to go with a U87. I'd certainly like a really nice vintage mic in the future. I think that running through a U87 into my Avalon 737 is going to really help to warm things up a bit, and I keep hearing that it's a killer combo for a primary vocal front end.

I only have the slightest thought that I should lean toward the Ifet7 for some reason, and it may be because of it's U87 option. I'm not sure...

I think the U87 wins. Come on yall, give me some confidence in this decision!

djui5

05-27-2004, 11:55 AM

u87 and 737:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

reignstorm

05-27-2004, 12:59 PM

Get the iFet7.... i have used and owned a bunch of mics and the iFet kills the 87 in its vocal mode...the only thing the u87 has on it is the "poser value"...which, yeah sometimes is important for a commercial place.

I have kept the following mics for vocals and i am very happy with my setup:

BLUE Mouse
BLUE Kiwi
Soundelux iFet7
Rode Classic II

ANy of these i would own over an 87 for overall vox use....if you haven't hear the rode calssic II...go check it out,....its a killer mic also.

reignstorm

05-27-2004, 01:10 PM

Oh yeah....and I forgot to mention that the iFet has an "instrument" mode which is incredible....i was in a session with Arun Venkatesh (he recently tracked the Thursday album) and with a quick placement on the kick drum we got what we both felt was the best kick drum sound we had ever recorded.

spicyitaliano

05-27-2004, 10:49 PM

Damnit, Reignstorm! You had to go and mess me up, didn't you! Arrrgghhh!

No, it's okay. But now I've got an opposing opinion. And it's not just another guy saying "No this one's better cause it's all I've ever tried" BS. So Randy, Michael - I'm now officially and thoroughly confused.

The one positive left for the U87 is that it's supposedly the perfect matchup with my 737.

HELP!

(If I could easily spend the money I wouldn't be begging for so much direction. Unfortunately....:( )

spicyitaliano

05-28-2004, 12:20 AM

Randy, I just ran over this on the GearSlutz forum. You didn't tell me about this!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jameslugo
You know I just dumped a new U87ai that I thought sucked. Everybody has been telling me I'm crazy but I went to my buddy b-magical's studio and sang through his old U87 and it sounded great. What's up with that? Are the new Neumann's that inferior to the older ones?

>>Yep..you've witnessed it first hand....<<

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've read about this a lot. Many people say that the newer Neumanns sound nothing like the originals, especially the U87. I wonder if I should take this into account. The Soundelux mics seem to be nagging at me again...

I'm intending on this microphone to be my main go-to mic for most vocals. Considering what I've already got -- :classic:

djui5

05-28-2004, 02:21 AM

Yeah..have you ever heard the KM84's?....the difference between the new u87's and the old ones is similar to the difference betwen the KM84's and the KM184's.

I think neumann was trying to add some air and upper end hype to their mics....some people still prefer the older mics.

Of course a u195 wouldn't hurt you either and I'm sure you'd be very happy with it.

I think the biggest question is what kinda clients are you expecting. Are they the "studio bling" type of clients or are they people that will trust what your using is best....if the latter then go for the u195.

If you do decide to get a u87 you can probably find an older one on e-bay....

michaelhoddy

05-28-2004, 07:18 AM

Don't even get me started on the "old versus new Neumann" thing. For the record, I sold my KM184's because I couldn't find anything I truly liked them on. I now have a pair of KM84's (which need a rebuild) and two pairs of KM83's, one pair of them modified by Klaus Heyne. Far superior to anything new Neumann makes, in my opinion.

As for the U87, I've actually heard the opposite, that many people prefer the newer AI model to the older A and original models, because of better noise specs, and a better extension in the top end. Mine were U87A's.

The U87 is a good mic with tremendous name recognition. The Soundelux is a great mic. All of them. As I said before, there's a very arguable case for going either way. If you don't intend to do a lot of commercial work, you really don't need the U87. But if you're counting on your equipment list to attract clients, you do need the Neumann.

If you get the U87, you'll get a good mic. Just don't expect it to be a first choice on everything, or for angels to descend from the sky when you press record. It will be a first choice on certain male vocals, vocals that the TLII will also be a pretty decent choice on. You'll dislike it intensely on certain females, for which the TLII will be wonderful. Pretty much everything else, it will do a decent, if not jaw-dropping job on. Neither mic will do the Norah Jones kind of thing. Both will be fairly bright. The U87 will sound bigger than the TLII, but not a 251 or even a U47 kind of big.

If you're really in a quandry, I'd pick up a U195, live with it for a few months, see what you like it on, and then use the savings you got when you bought it and some other money to pick up a third mic, probably a tube mic, which fills in the gaps between the TLII and the U195.

spicyitaliano

05-28-2004, 02:09 PM

Randy, I ran into that situation when I bought my last pair of SD condensers. Intrestingly, I ended up with the Rode NT5's over the KM184's!

You both mentioned the name recognition of Neumann. Having a U87 is certainly a selling point. My client base is not really the "studio bling" type, and they only want what will sound best, regardless of the name. That said, I think I'd rather get something that would be more versatile and better for more voices, and same some money at the same time.

Okay, U87's out. I'm settled on it. I really like what I see from the Soundelux mics, both of them. For my price range, I think the real options here are, as already stated, the U195 and the iFet7.

So I suppose that leads me to my next (and hopefully last;) ) question. What can you tell me about the differences between the two, application wise. I've read all the information online and they both look like excellent mics. A review on these forums read that the 195 is great on a lot of things, in both modes, but doesn't have as much body and openess of the ifet7. The ifet7 has two modes and sounds a bit fuller/thicker.

I know that it's pretty rediculous to judge on these mics with words like "thicker and brighter", but I'd love to hear your opinions.

I want to keep a few things considered when figuring out the best for my applications. One, I have the 737 and MP-2NV preamps available, I've already got the TL-II's, and that most of the music being recorded here is pop-rock and RnB soul-funk.

Thanks so much for the help through my little quandry!

michaelhoddy

05-28-2004, 02:23 PM

I'm not sure what the difference between the U195 and the ifet in "instrument" mode is, given that both are loosely based on the U47FET. I do know that the ifet's "vocal" mode is largely recognized as an improved U87-type sound by a lot of people. If that's the sound you're after, go for the ifet. It does seem more flexible than the U195 because of that mode switch.

But the U195 is a great mic, and I'll vouch for that personally. It doesn't sound like a U87 so much as it sounds like a mic that I'd pick over the U87 for many things. Not thin at all, warm and full of color.

This is probably getting to the point where you'll either have to audition a couple yourself, or just jump for one and see how you like it. There is no such thing as a bad-sounding Soundelux mic, so you won't go wrong either way.

spicyitaliano

05-28-2004, 03:06 PM

Thanks for the inspiring words, Michael.

So as far as overall tone is concerned between the two mics, you'd say that the 195 is very warm and colorful, like a typical vintage condenser mic. As for the ifet7, it's more of a clean mic, per say, in relation to the 195? More like a U87, minus the cold tone? I guess I'm saying that the 195 is simply more color than the ifet7. Would you agree? I'm feeding into two very warm preamps, and so I wonder how much vintage warmness I could drive out of the ifet, morso than the 195 perhaps??

I'm going to scour the web for more reviews and comments. Let me know what you think. Thanks!

spicyitaliano

05-28-2004, 04:30 PM

Done, ordered. I got the ifet7. I called up Sweetwater and my sales rep found one they had opened for a mic shootout. It was in perfect condition, but because it was opened, I got a $250 discount. It was a very good deal!

Anyway, thanks so much to you guys for the help. It'll really pay off, I'm sure! Thanks!

:bounce:

michaelhoddy

05-28-2004, 05:08 PM

That's a great deal. Let us know how you like it. Remember, I haven't used an ifet yet either!

djui5

05-28-2004, 06:58 PM

edhunt

05-29-2004, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by spicyitaliano
Done, ordered. I got the ifet7. I called up Sweetwater and my sales rep found one they had opened for a mic shootout. It was in perfect condition, but because it was opened, I got a $250 discount. It was a very good deal!
:bounce:

Please post a sample vocal when you get a chance. I am leaning towards the ifet7, but am thinking about the U195. This may help me make the same agonizing decision you did.

Edward