Where does the bass end?!?

[Sinkharmony]

I wanted to pose this question because it is an interesting dilemma that I think everyone comes across from time to time. As engineers, producers, masterers, etc etc we tend to mix on good monitors that are usually "flat" and don't hype any particular frequencies. However, when our musical product gets out into the real world, most consumers have stereos with bass buttons, eq's that carve out mids and boost lows and highs, cars with huge subwoofers, etc, etc. In general, the tendancy is for consumer systems to boost the low frequencies. Most people tend to set their systems and then forget it, so if you mix with the intention of having big bass, then when it gets to these systems it is much too much.

I went to AES NYC this year (my first AES show, yay) and attended the Compression seminar that was held. Frank Filipetti was one of the panelists and was telling a story about mixing the last Korn album. The drummer of korn came up to him and was complaining that the mix was boomy and there was too much bass. Frank then went on to say how he went out and looked at the drummer's car and saw that he had huge subwoofers with the bass cranked up as high as it could go. He turned it down and the drummer was much happier with the mix. Everyone laughed, but it was a telling sign of consumer trends.

So my question is this: Knowing this, does this effect the way everyone does their mixes? Do you purposely not put as much bass into a song as you would if this weren't a consideration? Obviously this is more telling with certain kinds of music (rock, hiphop, pop) than with others (classical, jazz) but I'm curious what people do to get around this hurdle and make a mix that sounds good no matter what system is playing it.

[tinkerbox]

one thing i think helped me is cutting out everything from around 40 hz and below out.then you can dump the 60 hz completely out and probly boost the 100hz a hair on the bass.Then check with a spectrum analizer and just check out different styles of music and copy them as close as you can.And dont mix with no external eq and bass boost.Anyhow im more confident with my bass now and people who crank subs in there car can just like turn it down ya know..oh ya on my final mixes (stereo file) I will dump the lows out again.just a habit but it really gets rid of that stupid rumble in rock and countrie.rap ill probly leave it all in there most of the time but i hate rap.lol.

[DAS]

I've just learned to not enhance the bass (boos eq, etc.) in the control room because it seems that people do enough of that on their own in the field. I generally don't eq the low end of kick drum or bass much - leave it as is - usually works pretty well.

[Sinkharmony]

Hmm, I was hoping for more responses, but I guess other people don't find this to be a problem. :\

[cmchamp]

Adam:
Not a problem in the work I do, mostly acoustic with Southern Country Gospel, Orchestral, Jazz and Choral. I have done some SKA, and believe it or not, even in the studio, they asked for less bottom!
I also do work with some local Christian Rock groups, and they don't seem to ask for more bottom either.
I try to make the mix as tight as possible given what the client gives me when we're tracking. Too much bottom simply muddies up the mix.
C.

[djui5]

Adam,
I've always found that if you can get a good mix in the studio that will translate well to most systems...then if some guy want's to turn his bass in his car to 11 then he's gonna want his bass loud. I used to install car stereo's and know a lot of people don't think about balance when adjusting their systems. A lot of people turn the treble all the way up..and the bass all the way up. Us engineers like balance...but a lot of people don't care.

So to get to my point...I like to get the mix sounding good. Even with a lot of hip/hop, rap stuff the bass really isn't that loud. If you turn the bass up or down in the mix expecting that someone will have too much bass in their system then your mix won't translate well with the rest of the systems out there. There's nothing we can do about how people adjust their systems...so you just get it sounding the best you can and then you know it will sound at least good everywhere. If you take too much bass out...the mix get's thin, if you add too much...it get's muddy.

I believe I was echoing what has been said...just in my own language.

[sameoldsong]

Any mastering engineers have a comment?

And a little note about "bass boosts"

I've noticed some systems that if you turn the "bass boost" off it almost sounds like there's a high pass filter is on there. When you put the boost back on it just brings you back to where the system was designed to be.

It just seems to me that "bass boosts" are just a marketing gimmick.

[tinkerbox]

youve really got to know your monitors well by listining to everything on the market..take one night out of the week and just listen to your monitors whatever they are and focus on the bass and how panning is done to give that bass more freedom.

[dan le]

The Bass is the worst topic that you can bring up.
Let's go back to the root of the problem. If you are thinking about the bass then there must be some unhappiness with the bass volume or velocity or else at mix down.
It has to do with the bass sound you use, whether VI, or from a sound module or real bass recorded.
Or there are something, some other sound(s) in your mix that interferes with your bass.
Isn't it true that you have some songs with perfect bass, and other that you can't seem to adjust the bass right.
When it does not work, then take out other tracks, one by one to see which one does not work well with the bass.
Once that is solved, then I would suggest ripping a song from a CD that resembles most closely to the song that you are doing, import it into your sequencer and mute it, and then solo it once in a while to compare with what you are mixing. If your sound comes out with the same bass level or intensity as the one on the CD then you have got it made. This is what a very higg end studio owner taught me and it has been working very well.
However, just a gripe before I finish, I have not found any good bass so far that I am totally happy with. I have a variety of sound module, Bass Legends, Trilogy Bass, Yellow Tools, and they all sound fine when playing alone, but in the mix then they are not doing too well. They tend to do a disappearing act, even with effects applied to it.
Some engineer told me to use a certain type of preamp when playing the bass back during mixdown.
Actually, the Ripper bass sound from my Kuzweil 2500 has been the best so far as far the volume, velocity and intensity.
I have heard that in big studios, they use a lot of tricks with different equipments to get the bass right.
That is where I am at right now with my mixing down. Everything is great except for the bass.
However, whatever you do, the bass does not have to be loud, BUT IT HAS TO BE DISTINCTIVE, punchy and resonant. Once you have that then let the listener turns the bass up himself.
Dan Le

[WillyT]

I tend to boost some at 350 to make it solid and a little more at 700 to get it punchy. This seems to work well live. Running DI and Beyer M88TG.

[Sinkharmony]

Originally posted by dan le

However, whatever you do, the bass does not have to be loud, BUT IT HAS TO BE DISTINCTIVE, punchy and resonant. Once you have that then let the listener turns the bass up himself.
Dan Le

Amen to that. Getting a great bass sound is one of the most challenging yet rewarding trials that we can go through. It's kinda like sunken treasure...it is always found in the deepest parts of the track, it can sometimes be buried, perhaps surrounded by traps and always worth it if you can find it and cash it in. :D I'm starting to get better at getting a good bass tone that fits the mix, but unfortunately I know I'm months if not years away from getting any sound that I'm really really happy with. Even then, I'll probably only like it for a short time before I know I could do better. Such is the life we lead, perfection is quite unattainable.