Converters, cables, adaptors ... many questions!

[Platypus]

Ok, can someone educate me a little bit on the relative importance of converters, cables, adapters, and their quality? In a perfect world, I would have unlimited funds and could buy all the best equipment, but, like most of us, I don't.

Here's what got me thinking. I recently bought a MOTU 828mkII (to replace a Terratec EWS88MT) and while I can't be certain, it does seem to sound nicer, especially in the lower frequencies. It just seems smoother, even though I've not changed any of my other equipment. So if converters alone can make my sound better, then how much importance should I then place on cable quality? I have a bunch of HOSA cables, and a couple Monster cables, and while it could be my imagination (because I want it to be true) the Monsters might sound a little better. But what about using adapters? The MOTU uses only 1/4" connectors, while the Terratec used only RCA. So now I face the dilemma of buying all new cables (and should they be HOSA or does it make a lot of sense to splurge on Monster?), or should I just get a bunch of RCA-to-1/4" adaptors? How important is it to keep all of the connectors/adaptors gold-plated?

I'm trying to figure out some good rules of thumb. Things like "it's ok to use adaptors if the cable itself is of good quality" or "it's better to use a lower-priced cable that doesn't need adaptors". It seems like going through an A/D and D/A conversion more times than necessary can degrade an audio signal much more than just having basic cables. Thoughts?

I see pictures in magazines of semi-pro studios, where they use cheap-looking patch cables in their patchbays, and generic looking audio cables pieced together with adaptors. Are these people clueless or is this not really an issue?

Sorry for all the question marks but I'd really like to know your opinions on the whole picture, not just cable quality (which already is a hot topic). Thanks!!! :D

[buckdarmha]

A good article in this month's Mix Magazine has Joe Chicarelli revealing that he will run Monster Cable mic cables through doorways to ensure that he has a good path from microphone to high-end preamp to console. Many other top engineer producers swear by monster, mogami and other boutique cables. They certainly can help compared to some of the cheaper cables that suffer from intermittent problems and poor shielding.

[monkeypants?]

Hey-
I have to say that cable quality can make a huge difference in sound quality. But one thing to keep in mind is the length of cable. If you're only going a couple of feet, there will be a much smaller difference between a cheap cable and a good one, but if you're going say, 20 feet, the better cable will sound a lot better. The reason for this is that cables can act as capacitors. If you don't know, a capacitor is a little device that is used in guitar tone controls, when the signal passes through it, it blocks the high frequencies so that you get a "toned down" signal coming out. The more cable length you run through, the greater the capacitance and loss of high end and overall definition. That which makes one cable better than another is usually its lower capacitance.
Hosa cables are questionable at best when it comes to their quality. If you can't or don't want to afford Mogami cable and are worried about adapters, I'd suggest buying bulk Mogami 1224 cable. This is the same cable that they use in high-end studios, etc., and if you cut it and assemble the connectors, you can get the bulk cable for like fifty cents a foot! If you want snake cable, that's pretty cheap too. This way you can also put whatever connectors you want on the ends, but bear in mind that if those are TRS jacks (they look like stereo 1/4 in.) on the 828, they're going to have a different impedance from the RCA jacks and you'll have to do something about that. It's pretty easy to make a cable, you just need some wire strippers and a soldering iron.
As for which is better between a bad cable and no adaptors or a good cable and adaptors, that depends on too many factors and I'd have to say just A/B them and choose for yourself. But I think that if you're going a long distance, it'd be best to use the good cable.
Some may argue with me on this, but I personally think gold-plated connectors are a total rip-off and have no impact on your sound.
Peace.

[patrox247]

Good cables make all the differance in the world. However, Monster calbes (although marketed as such) are nowhere near high end. This is one area where you can't skimp. I suggest Harmonic Technology out of San Diego Ca although there are many great high end choices. You won't find this stuff at your local music store. Try Audiogon.com for some good used audiophile grade stuff. As far as converters go, same thing. You can't have a weak link in your signal path.

[Platypus]

Hmm, interesting stuff!

Thanks for the replies so far!

Monkeypants -- that's a good point about cable length, I had forgotten that! I might be interested in just making my own cables (as you suggested). I am comfortable in soldering and such, but I'm not sure what to do about the impedence issue. I'd just be making 1/4"-to-1/4" cables... so in that case, is it just a matter of soldering 1 piece of wire to two connectors or do I need to add something else in there to deal with the impedence issue? Also, can you tell me where good bulk cable can be bought? And I feel the same way as you -- that the gold connectors are probably unnecessary and have no bearing on quality, but I wouldn't ask if I was certain about it! Thanks for the help!!!

Patrox247 -- Yes, I know that you can spend hundreds of dollars more PER FOOT than Monster Cable (and get "high end"), but that is just ridiculous. If I had that much money to throw around, I would spend it on software, synths, instruments, travelling, food, my mortgage, anything. I'm more interested in learning about kinds of cables that I could buy in the $20-40 range that are going to be far superior to HOSA cables. As someone in another forum said, the difference between the cheap cables and the low-end Monster Cables is going to be much more impressive than any difference you'll see above that point. And I believe it. I think my ears can tell the difference between Hosa and Monster, but I think only my wallet will FEEL the difference beyond that. :D

[cmchamp]

Platypus:
There are intermediates between the Hosa and the Monster cables. ProCo, Rapco, Horizon, Conquest all provide the type of cable you're looking for under the 'Monster' price range. I've been pleased with all these brands live and in my project studio. For larger, realy paying clients, I break out the good stuff (shhh that's a secret) as they're respectful of the quality they could be steping on (hope they're not stepping on it)
C.

[WillyT]

Or driving over em.:eek:

I personally don't like using adaptors but keep bunches handy for live sound jobs where you have no time to go buy the right cable. Or can't even find one to buy.

For cables that will stay plugged in for days or weeks at a time I recommend the gold plated stuff. Not quite so important if cables are plugged and unplugged every job. I don't recommend bare brass as it will have to be cleaned every day.

Full shields are important also. Foil shields work well for permanent installations but may deteriorate if moved every day. Full braid shields for all mic cables. Spiral wrap shields are cheap crap, and will gap open.

Low capacitance cables for all high impedance connections. This is not critical for most mic and ballanced line low impedance signals.

12 gauge or 10 gauge for all speaker cables.

[DAS]

Some clarification, and another opinion

A capacitor does not impede high frequencies when in-line in a circuit. It actually stops DC (or low frequencies) and passes high frequencies, however, in parallel it can act as a sort of short (to ground) of high frequencies. This is what happens in audio cables. The two long pieces of wire next to each other can act as a capacitor and roll off some high frequencies (read transient information) and introduce phase shifts (in the form of group delay), both of which can mess up your perception of detail and stereo imaging. It is more of a problem in longer cables.

http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/word.php?find=Capacitor

http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/word.php?find=Transient

http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/word.php?find=GroupDelay



Most of the time most people will find that replacing one cable with a "better" cable yields a barely noticeable difference or no audible difference. Those same people usually notice a big difference if they replace every cable in their system with better ones. The effect is subtle, but cumulative. (Of course there are exceptions in all of these cases - clearly going from a $5 Radio Shack cable to a Monster cable is likely to yield more than a subtle difference.) Once you have "good" cables you begin to reach a point of diminishing returns. Most people agree that once you have "good" cables it takes exponentially more money to acquire cables that are significantly "better" in terms of the resulting sound. However it does not always take a whole lot more money to get cables that are better made, and thus more robust in terms of lasting and retaining their sound quality through varying degrees of use and abuse.

Finally - soldering. In most cases the weak "link" of any cable is the contact points. This pertains to the connector, but also to the point where the wire is soldered to the connector. There is much more science to this than most people realize. There are "audiophile" solders and flux materials one can use, and so on... Regardless of materials the quality of the work can absolutely have an impact on the resulting sound, not to mention the effect of time and use. This is why I'm very cautious about recommending people make their own cables.

[Platypus]

Ah, this is all great information!

I too have noticed that the sound improves if I try to re-route things such that I'm using as few cables as possible -- and it makes sense that it sounds the best when all the cables are of good quality. So... it occurs to me that the convenience of a patchbay makes everything much more expensive, because for each cable connection you want to make, you now have to have 2 ADDITIONAL good quality cables. What am I, made of money?? :scared:

I've decided that I probably won't try making my own cables after all. I've had a couple people both mention that making a good solder connection can be frustrating. Whenever I have soldered stuff in the past, its never been when quality mattered too much, or when the wire itself is going to be pulled or pushed around regularly.

chchamp -- Thanks for the brand names of intermediate quality cables, that is exactly what I'm looking for! In an ocean of brand names, I need to know which are recommended. Are you partial to any one of the brands you listed? ProCo seems to be a "sweetwater" brand.

Thanks everyone! :cool:

[cmchamp]

I have a handful of cables from each of these companies. I'm particularly fond of my Conquest USA-2 microphone cable, simply because of its ruggedness I think, but have plenty of patch cables from both Rapco and Monster. Not mutch noticable difference at 3 ft yet but I've not broken the 24/48 barrier in recording either.
C.

[sdelsolray]

I had the same questions when setting up my little studio. I chose to buy bare Mogami cable (300 feet), Swithcraft and Neutrix connectors, a soldering iron and solder. Spent a weekend (or most of it) building cables. Kinda fun. Certainly cheaper. Decent cables too!
--
Stephen Boyke

[Platypus]

I'm learning a lot about cables and how important they are, but I think the big lesson here is that it takes a lot of patience, experimentation, and/or money to find the right combination.

Yesterday I was getting really frustrated with hearing occasional pops out of my speakers. One of my discoveries is that if I plug headphones into my speakers (I'm using Klipsch Promedia 2.1 thx speakers for the mean time, until I decide I can afford more serious "monitors"), and I discovered that I could hear all kinds of noise, even when nothing was playing... and it all came down to the fact that I was using RCA-1/4" adaptors between my audio interface and the speakers. The cable itself was of good quality (I think) but it was the adaptors that was introducing noise!

Still, I hear occasional pops (very subtle, but enough to annoy me) coming out of the speakers, and it seems like some audio sources are cleaner than others, so I'm not sure my speakers are to blame (otherwise I think they sound very good for my purposes). I wonder if the problem is this: the speakers have 2 inputs -- the "main" input is an audio cable with a 1/8" stereo male plug on the end, and the 2nd input is a female 1/8" jack. Both sources are mixed to create the sound you hear, so here's my question: If I plug in a "good" cable into the 2nd input, the main input's cable is just lying there, not plugged into anything. If I touch the connector with my finger, it sometimes results in a subtle pop in the speakers, so could this cable be introducing pops by just sitting there? I know what most of you will say... "don't mess around with 'computer' speakers, go spend a few grand on high-end monitors and power conditioners and etc, etc" but I can't justify that cost. not today anyway. I think the speakers sound great, except for the occasional pop, and I'm just not convinced that the pops would disappear with another set of speakers. Is this "popping" a common thing? Does it develop as speakers get older or worn out? If I listen closely, I'll hear a pop a couple times a minute, and if I replay a section, I don't hear it, so I know it's not the source material! Thanks!!!

sdelsolray -- where can I buy bulk Mogami cable? Thanks...

[WillyT]

Just bury the adaptors in your basement and buy gold.

When crap gets intermittant I throw it away (if I can afford to) or clean the connections, use the blue stuff if you can find it. OR hardwire it soldering all connections and using no plugs or jacks (PITA)

(edit)Or it could be your household appliances starting and stopping in which case you may need power conditioning.

[monkeypants?]

You can buy bulk mogami at Redco.com or Markertek.com. Sorry I didn't say so earlier, but it just didn't feel right to steer someone to a different website when sweetwater's being so nice and letting us use their forums.
Having a cable connected to your speaker and nothing else could, in my opinion, cause the pops. That's just like adding a little antenna to your speakers to pick up interference, try using that one instead, if you can, and leave the jack without the cable disconnected. If that doesn't help, who knows what it could be. The speakers on my garbageville Hewlett Packard at work make a faint rumbling sound whenever I move a window around on my screen, or whenever the computer does any sort of processing. I think it's from having a cheap soundcard that's probably picking up interference from the inside of my computer.
Good luck!

[Platypus]

Yea, that's a good point... Sweetwater is awesome and I too don't want to steer business to another site, but I did check to see if bulk mogami was sold here before asking! :D (That makes it okay, right?)

I've also noticed the faint "rumbling" problem every now and then, but I don't think its related to the sound card itself, because in my case, my audio interfaces are both external and therefore don't do their D/A conversion inside the cpu case. Perhaps it is the higher levels of electromagnetic noise from monitors that creates problems, or maybe its best to avoid running audio cables near other kinds of cables or equipment.

This stuff is so hard to analyze. Is it the speakers (or having non-shielded speakers)? the cables? the audio interface? the video monitor? all four? AAAaaarrrrGGgGGgghHHh!

What is everyone's opinion on the cheaper active monitors, like the Alesis M1 Active MkII that Sweetwater sells? I might consider some more robust speakers soon.

Thanks... !

[DAS]

In what capacity did you check? We do sell bulk Mogami, and other brands. Talk to your Sales Engineer.

[Platypus]

I just searched from the main page on "mogami". Maybe what I saw before was actually bulk cable and didn't realize it. One of the search results is:

Mogami 2Cond+shldBay
100M 26ga w/Copper shield-patch bay perm100M

That sounds like bulk cable to me, but some of these buzzwords are lost on me... "shield-patch bay"? Does that mean it is shielded cable intended for patch bay (or line level) signals? What does "perm" mean. I think I was just confused by the not-quite-obvious description when I was searching for bulk cable before! Thanks DAS.

[Platypus]

On another note, what's this about DIRECTIONAL cables? I have 2 monster cables that have an intended signal direction, and an Acoustic Research cable that has a signal path arrow as well. Of all the things about analog cables, this seems to be the most nonsensical. What is the deal exactly? Can it really matter? Could you ever hear the difference if you turned one of those cables around the other way? Thanks! :D

[DAS]

Understood Platypus - it can be confusing, and probably could be documented better. This may be a case where you'd be best served by a conversation with your Sweetwater Sales Engineer.

[DAS]

Directional Cables


It can be as simple as some way the wires are connected to each end. A certain shielding convention, when carried out properly throughout a system, can make a difference.

Beyond that it gets substantially more controversial. The idea, as I understand it, is that the direction wire strands are extruded from the big blocks of copper have an impact on how they conduct electricity, specifically in regard to what is controversially known as "wire resonances." Wire resonances are minute vibrations that occur in wires caused by the magnetic field generated from current flow through them. The current flow causes the wire to resonate, which in turn has an effect on how it is relating to the magnetic fields already present in most environments, which therefore cause minute changes (in terms of certain reinforcements and cancellations) in how complex signals are transmitted down the wire.

(For those cynics in the crowd, this stuff isn't as far fetched as it may sound to you. I'm not advocating it, but I also don't discount it out of hand.)

Proponents of these theories are thoroughly convinced that wire polarity can have an effect on sound. From there, assuming you buy in to this so far, you have to get to the next question, which is, how can a manufacturer know which direction is "right" for labeling of the wire? We'll save that debate for another day...

[WillyT]

I could see where telescoping shields would make a difference which way the cable needs to be installed. (But if you need this its time to rethink your grounding scheme)

But signal direction from how a wire is extruded? Hey these are ac signals they have to go both ways! Stuff like that sets off my b***s*** detector.

Like the Carver Magnetic Field stuff. Oooh see the magnetic field unit in the amp (hey its just a power transformer not even in the signal path).

Don't get me wrong the amps sound and work great and I use them for my high frequency power.

But its just marketing b***s***! And thats how you sell stuff. Although telling the straight no bs story sells stuff to me.

[Platypus]

It does sound like a load of marketing nonsense to me too. Oh sure, I believe that there's some actual theory behind directional cables, but come on. The amount of benefit that a directional cable will have on signal quality is going to be offset by radiation from my neighbor's television being on, three houses down the street... if you see what I'm saying.

However, I think the TRUE advancement in cable technology is rooted heavily in theory AND is simple and inexpensive. I'm talking about balanced cables. Wouldn't you all agree with me? That balanced cables probably do the best job of ensuring a good signal path? It seems like a cheap balanced cable does more than an expensive unbalanced cable, but equipment that uses it is still a little scarce.

[DAS]

Platypus - I think that's a pretty sound and pragmatic view of things, and you should be fine if you approach your wiring with those basic kinds of ideas.

I would just like to caution others about the strength of their (potentially not very well grounded) opinions on subjects that may not fit in to the view they already have about the way things work. Truly good engineers are inherently open minded and approach new ideas with wonder, not contempt and cynicism. I see this fault in the audio industry a lot...and there is a lot of "marketing" going on, so I also understand it to a certain degree. I just prefer tempered and qualified opinions, and/or a close look at all the facts before spouting them.

Of course, one cool thing about forums is that there's one available for just about any discipline one happens to have an interest in. There are audiophile forums where subjects like directional wire are discussed in pretty great depth. If someone has particularly strong opinions about this (one way or the other) that would be a good place to test them to see if they hold water.

[Platypus]

Hey DAS...

I agree with everything you are saying... when I have asked questions in the past, it is just to educate myself a little better about the relative values of everything. I apologize if I was a little quick to dismiss the theory behind it, and thank you for telling me about the theory instead of just saying "directional cables are indisputably better and are worth any increase in price". An audiophile person would probably respond that way, which is not very helpful! :D I guess the important question is, will I be able to hear the difference when a directional cable is plugged in one way versus the reverse way? My guess is that the difference you can hear with balanced/unbalanced cable would be greater... I guess I'll have to do some experiments to know for sure!

I was just contemplating yesterday... how is it that (analog) cable tv is able to transmit such a tremendous amount of information (all those channels simultaneously) through thousands and thousands of feet of (probably cheap) coax cable and it still looks so good on the tv screen? And yet, I have a hard time getting an S/PDIF signal to travel 20 or 30 feet without it sounding terrible. Is the cable tv signal only analog for the short distance from the pole/corner to my house? What is the fundamental difference between these two kinds of cables? What if I used an adaptor to connect the RCA S/PDIF jack to a long cable tv-style coax cable?

On a related note, it's weird how my old Terratec EWS88MT could push an S/PDIF signal through a *splitter*, one cable being 20' long and the other goes through 75 feet of cheap cable WITH adaptors and the signal sounded good on the other end, but a MOTU 828mkII sounds bad on the 20' end of the split cable, and my receiver can't even lock onto the S/PDIF signal at the end of the 75' piece. I guess I should be spoiled by the fact that the Terratec could do it at all, but I wonder why the MOTU can't.

[DAS]

The easy answer is it's just apples and oranges. The cable TV thing works, in part, because it is analog, which means there is a different type of, and more gradual, degradation of the signal. That said, digital cable works too - in both cases it has a lot to do with the equipment at both ends and along the way. The simplistic view is that it's "better." Though this is, to some extent, true, it also has a lot to do with the fact that much of it is designed and configured to be used as a system, where most of the other components and variables are pretty well known.

In the plug and play music gear community where we live the components used are designed with varying degrees of ability to handle difficult circumstances. The S/PDIF spec was never intended to be used for long distances (like AES/EBU) or to be split (I'm half surprised that ever worked at all...). So, changing the cable as you suggest isn't likely to help, and could make it worse. The solution to the immediate problem you mention is probably to convert the signal to AES/EBU at the source, transmit it down the long cable, then convert back to S/PDIF (if necessary) at the destination.

Wish I had time to get in to more detail...

[WillyT]

hey DAS

MRI announcement set off my bs detector way back when, too:p

But it does work.

I really do try to keep an open mind and a closed pocketbook.

Whats really weird is another sound guy accused me of being an audiophile. (Just because a spent way more money on mics)

[DAS]

Originally posted by WillyT


I really do try to keep an open mind and a closed pocketbook.



I hear ya' and I wasn't really picking on you. I just see that attitude a lot: engineers stubbornly carrying their opinions about things around like some badge of honor. "Ah...you sales guys can't fool ME, I know what you're up to..."

If companies are able to sell $500 IEC style power cables on a regular basis (and they are) they've probably already thought about and dealt with the obvious, "It's AC, and goes both ways" objection. Again, I'm NOT advocating this stuff, and I know for a fact there is some smoke and mirrors involved in some of it, but there are some interesting theories and ideas when you dig in to it and learn what some of the (more reputable) companies are up to.

[Platypus]

Back to my S/PDIF-over-decent-distances question...

I was talking to one of the tech support guys at Sweetwater (didn't get his name) and he said that he runs S/PDIF over unshielded speaker cable, and presumably it works fine. I thought that was an interesting idea (due to the low cost of the cable) but I wonder what kind of conversion would facilitate that.

I also notice you guys sell an Aardvark S/PDIF-AES converter, which looks too simple to work. Is it intended to work in both directions? I don't have any AES equipment, so I would need to convert S/PDIF to AES, run cable for 75 feet, and convert back to S/PDIF. Is that little converter/adaptor a decent solution to the problem?

Thanks!

[DAS]

The speaker cable thing sounds very dubious to me...I'll have to walk back to inquire more about that with them. "Normally" the wire impedance is of some importance, and speaker cable...well...I wouldn't do it if I were you. Even if it did somehow "work," the jitter caused along the way might be severe.

The aardvark thing does work pretty well. There are devices that work better ($$$). Understand that this one doesn't change the data format from S/PDIF to AES/EBU, it only changes the impedance of the signal and balances it so it can travel down the long length, which is just what you need. Yes, placing an identical one at the other end will change it back to S/PDIF.

[Platypus]

Maybe someone should figure out how to stream digital audio data over an RJ-45 style connection (standard network cable). It obviously has the bandwidth for it, and the distance can be really far... it would have to be a different data format than a packet-based networking protocol of course, but could probably incorporate some kind of error checking if needed. Network cable is abundantly cheap, so it seems like a good idea! So who wants to build me a S/PDIF to RJ-45 adaptor? :)

[djui5]

Originally posted by Platypus
Maybe someone should figure out how to stream digital audio data over an RJ-45 style connection (standard network cable). Network cable is abundantly cheap, so it seems like a good idea! So who wants to build me a S/PDIF to RJ-45 adaptor? :)

I smell a patent brewing

[TheNewKid]

monitors are really easy to compare. If there's an audio store near by like Guitar Center (good luck getting help) You can go stand by the monitors and get someone's attention and they'll most likely let you listen to anything they have set up. Then, of course check sweetwater since they'll probably have better prices. Sorry, GC.

[TheNewKid]

whoa! That was supposed to go at the end of the first page. I didn't realize there were two more...

...But now that I've read all the way through I stick to my comment. You don't have to spend thousands of dollars for monitors and all that (I mean, I would if I could, too). My plan on the rig I'm building is to keep it 1/4 inch. And I'd definetly recomend a set of monitors that take 1/4". I mean, as a bare, bare minimum. I made a CD of me and some guys, monitored it on a decent set of computer speakers, and it sounded great. Until we played it on absolutely any other set of speakers anywhere.

Also. A lot of this has gone over my head, I admit. I mean, I don't even know what AES is (thought it was Audio Engineering Society) but we're not talking about going through RCA converters, are we? I mean, the beauty of ballanced cables is the noise cancelation at the end? RCA is unballanced. And the weakest link will always screw your sound, right?

Put me back in my place if I'm wrong. Unfortunetly most of my knowlege has come from school so far.