Keyboards for a songwriter

[Diego E]

Hello All,

I'm new to the forum, just joined in, although I've been reading it a lot for some time now.
I'm asongwriter / keyboard player, I have a home studio based on a PC running Cubase SX and various soft synths + Gigasampler. It is working OK for my arrangements. Problem is my keyboard, a Korg X3 which I had for many years. I need a change. I believe keyboards are inspirational tools, and the X3 is no longer making it for me ... (of course ! you may say ...)
I want to buy 2 new keyboards, my budget is approx $ 4000, I tihnk about buying a Motif ES 7 and a Karma, because I've played the Karma and found it very inspirational and songwriting oriented. And liked the motif too.
I just read many good comments on the Fantom, and since the S61 is same price range as the karma I was wondering if I should buy one Fantom instead ...
Comments and suggestions will be more than welcome.
Regards from Argentina !

Diego E

[Slovenec]

The Karma has that special 'KARMA' feature which allows all these different musical elements to be controlled in ways unavailable on other keyboards. Magazine reviews have really praised what the Karma is capable of. To be honest, playing the Karma to me felt like playing a cheap Triton. But in fairness I must say that I wasn't given a good demo of how it's functions work (I own a Triton 'Classic'). However if you like the Korg sounds then the Karma is a great workstation, although I'd find the Triton much better to get around thanks to the excellent touch screen.

Because I already own a Triton, Id be inclined to go for the Roland Fantom S. This is really a great workstation for the money and (in a change for Roland!) very intuitive to use:). It sounds great and is very expandable.

The Yamaha Motif ES is the next step up from the Fantom S in many ways with more polyphony, simultaneous fx, waveform memory etc. The Motif ES is simply superb and its really the 1st Yamaha synth that I have considered buying!!!!!

Check out all the available options. You can't go wrong whichever way you go as all these keyboards are great! Let your ears be the judge not the features!!!!!!

[Diego E]

Thanks for your input Slovenec, I will try both again (already tried the Karma but never did with the Fantom S) and see which one fits better my songwriting needs (pop, ballads).
The motif ES will definitely be in my gear as soon as I work out my budget, short term I will decide between the Karma and the Fantom.

Thank you !

[Slovenec]

Get both the Karma and the Fantom S!!!!!!!!!!!!!:).

[Diego E]

That would be nice !!!! :) But my gear will be the Motif 7 ES plus either the Karma or the Fantom. I have to say that I'm more oriented to the Karma as I find it very inspirational for songwriting ... is like you trigger any patch with the Karma function on and you have an idea for a song, and I'm not sure if the Fantom would work in such a way ...
I know the Fantom is newer and has lots of features the Karma doesn't have, but those feature will be later covered by the Motif ES ...
I'll let you know what I do once I make up my mind ...

Thanks !

[shadowcompany]

Well Diego your definately wise and right to get the Motif ES no matter what. Right now it is clearly the best workstation out there. A couple of things to consider:

Korg will probably be announcing a new workstation at Winter Namm. You should wait and see if its something you would like.

Its sounds to me like you've talked yourself into the Karma and want our approval. If you like it and it inspires you, forget what all of us say and do what's best for you.

The fantom s is a very easy keyboard to use. While the reviews are mixed and my personal bad experiences aside, you should decide for yourself.

Good luck!

[Slovenec]

Both Karma and Fantom S are fantastic workstations. You won't get the same 'Karma' features out of a Fantom S because that is technology only specific to the Karma!

Like I advised above, pick the synth that you think 'SOUNDS' the best not the one that has the most features or a better sequencer. When it boils down to something it always boils down to whether you like the sound and how the instruments sound inspires you to creative with you music.

I'll never forget when the Korg M1 came out!!!!! It was an instrument that inspired me in so many ways and subsequently I bought it's bigger brother the Korg T3. Believe you me, there have been a stack load of newer 'better' synths come along but I still love my T3 dearly and it in some ways sounds alot better than some of the newer Korg workstations like the N and X series (IMHO obviously!).

Playing the Motif ES 2 weeks ago inspired me in the same way. When I first played the Triton 4 years ago I was also inspired. The Korg Wavestation (about to sell my AD!) also inpired me no end as has the 3 JV1080's that I have owned since 1997.

So go by whatever does it for you soundwise! If the Karma is the one, then don't listen to anyone else on this board but yourself. As for me, because I already own Triton, Id be more inclined to check out a Fantom S. But thats only me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I owned a Motif ES (you lucky man!!!!!), Id also have great difficulty picking between the Fantom S and Karma as they both sound awesome!!!!!

[Diego E]

Hi guys ! you are both right and have gave me great input. Shadowc ... you are right when you say I've talked myself into the Karma, 1st because is the one I've tried do far (never tried the fantom yet), 2nd because of all the good things I've read regarding how it helps songrwiters (from Bob James to Phil Collins ... ). But I'm not looking for approval, I was looking for experience, people who have played both and had some experience to share. Most of all regarding the Fantom as that's the one I've never played ...
But anyway, you are both right, my ears will be the decision makers ... To me the more important thing is the sound, not the workstation capabilities as I already work OK with my PC.
I will also stay tuned to Winter Namm, but the new Korg wavestation will surely be out of the budget I'm assigning for the Karma ... It mayalthough fit the budget for the Motif ES ... We'll see ...
Wouldn't it be nice not to have budget issues ?????

Thank you guys !

[sonicbaz]

I just bought a Karma for writing - a wicked instrument. I've been checking it out with Sound Diver OSX beta and am in the process of working out the architecture. It's a stunning piece of design and I have great hopes for the things that I will write on this truly classic synth.

I highly recommend it! :banana:

soncibaz

::::::and last year this would have been relevent :classic:

[mattmclane]

I am sure that you have already made your choice, but if you haven't, here is my two cents. I have been an avid Yamaha fan for years. I started with the SY77 years ago and have stuck with Yamaha. However, since the Triton I have also fell in love with Korg. I think you are on the right track to go with the ES 7 and the Karma. That way you have the best of both worlds. And since you are using Cubase (as I do as well) you don't have to worry about missing out on the fancy interface of the Triton.
As for the Fantom, I have played with that machine quite a bit, and have to admit it is fantastic. I'm waiting for the rack though on that one. One thing I love it about it is its electronic sounds. However, if I were having to make your choice, I would still go with the Karma and the ES7. I think you will be very happy indeed!
My two cents. About what there worth.

[al-haidar]

Hello friends,

I am new at this forum nad have seen some of the latest messages concerning some comparisons between some synth brands. As far as I have read in these messages, no one mentioned the Kurzweil 2600 or the new K 2661 synths. I have the K2600 and am very happy with it. Has anyone of you out there compared the other brands to the Kurzweil synths. I am curious to find out out since I am considering getting a second synth. The one I am considering to buy must have various sounds or samples of the well known sounds of the Prophet and similar variations. Any ideas or pointers ? Thanks in advance to all replies.

AL.

[johnnyProcket]

Along those same lines, what is the opinion of the Korg PA1xPRO? It seems like it offers the best of both worlds. Any comments?

[Diego E]

Hi guys, what is the PA1Xpro ???
I did consider the K2600 al-hadar, but I consider it a little out of budget, and still like the motif ES better, but I know Kurzweil has great synths, I hope someday I have one on my rig too.

Thanks !
D

[johnnyProcket]

The PA1xPro is Korg's new professional arranger/workstation/sampler and performance controller. It is designed to do weverything and is about 3500 bucks! It has like 8 tracks to build your songs behind, touch screen, TC-Helicon vocal processor for the XLR ins. It has an option to outo accompany within the style you choose and it stays in your key, whatever key you play in. The only problem for me is that its so new, and expensive, not many people have them yet. I was told it has attributes of the Karma and all the Triton packed into one plus tons of other stuff. Let me know if this helps and if you find out anything else. As far as I know, no one makes a keyboard even close to this one.

[shadowcompany]

Your talking arrangers and workstations, two different beasts.

From what I've heard on different internet sites the PA1xPro can't hold a candle to the Yamaha Tyros. I wasalso in a guitar center and the store GM and a couple of guys were talking about both of these. The Tyros appears to be much better especially with the sounds according to what I heard from them.

Of course you should always listen for yourself and decide.

[Leesong]

I had a Karma for a while. I liked its sounds and Karma effects but did not like the feel of the keyboard. I had considered a PA1XPro but feel it's not cost effective. The Fantom S and Motif are also good possible choices. Right now I'm using a Korg digital piano as a midi controller with a Roland 2080 and software synths and Digital Performer on the Mac. I also use a QY700 and Korg i5m to generate arrangements. Software synths are going to get better and better and with a computer generated sequencer, there is no need to get a workstation keyboard. What do you guys think?

[johnnyProcket]

Hey Shadowcompany, Thats funny about the Tyros because I heard the exact opposite from a Manager at Guitar Centers. He likes the Pa1XPro wayyyy more than the Yamaha. But then again he said they were designed for two different things. My understanding is the Korg is for the one man band or a performance keyboard that has EVERYTHING in it. Does anyone know if the Tyros has XLR ins or a vocal effects processor in it? Just goes to show thta we all have to make up our own mind and not be pursuaded by salesmen!!! I will say that my sweetwater rep always gives me unbiased info! Thanks!!! Anyone out there have a Tyros?

[johnnyProcket]

Oh yeah, Tyros only has 61 keys whie the Korg has 76. My arranger refuses to play on that small of a board, no matter who makes it. Music Diva!!lol Don't know if that is important to any of you.

[Diego E]

Those must surely be two nice keyboards, I{ve red the Keyboard Mag review for the Tyros and seems to be very good.
Although I admit I have some resistance against PA's ... I preffer workstations and the ability to do it all yourself ... The only thing close to a PA I really would like to have is the Karma ...
Although I admit I would like to listen to this PA's ...

Tks,
D

[Leesong]

Originally posted by Diego E
Those must surely be two nice keyboards, I{ve red the Keyboard Mag review for the Tyros and seems to be very good.
Although I admit I have some resistance against PA's ... I preffer workstations and the ability to do it all yourself ... The only thing close to a PA I really would like to have is the Karma ...
Although I admit I would like to listen to this PA's ...

Tks,
D

Diego,

The Karma is not really a PA. Although the programs and combis have special generated effects and respond to played chord changes, they are not styles and arrangements themselves. For example, on the Karma there are no buttons for intros
fills, breaks, endings, etc. You have to program that yourself, whereas with a PA, you can construct an entire song with kjust a push of a few buttons. Neverthesless, the Karma had great sounds and has great grooves and effects to jam along with.

[Diego E]

I know that Leesong, I've tried the Karma and really loved it, and I don't like PA's ... I'm really looking for good and inspiring sounds and ideas, the Karma fits perfect to my songwriting needs due to it's tons of inspiring ideas you can get out of the Karam function.
I'm not working as a full time musician now but I had my days of touring and working on this 100% of my time, so ... I don't like PA's, I like to do it myself, though as for sequencing I don't use workstations either ... I work with a PC based system.
So, main issue for me is the sounds, that said, question is if I should buy the motif rack instead of the ES 7, do you know what the difference is between the rack and the ES in terms of sounds ?
Tks,
D

[RWG]

I have a Tyros, and except for the disapointing fact that it does NOT have arpeggios, it is an absolutly incredibly excellent keyboard. The sounds are great! And yes it does have a powerful vocal processor. Not XLR in, but just the same - Can do amazing things! I have had mine for 6 months or so and am still learning things. I also have a Motif ES6 and DO NOT plan on getting rid of the TYROS. There are just too many things I can do easily with it. :)

[bat63]

Listen without prejudice....


http://www.ke-musik.dk/Upload/HtmlArticles/Article1284/RolandEXRKE_musik.mp3


If you feel the slightest tweak,let me know and I'll give up the good stuff...

[supermanrulez]

I just went through this exact same search with a good friend who was looking for an arranger. I agree it depends upon what you want to do. Like a poster above, I deal with sweetwater and the sales rep I work with told me the Tyros was better in his opinion. I truly believe you need to evaluate your needs, desires and expectations and see which one fits you best. Besides the 61 and 76 key difference, I felt the accoustical sounds( piano, ep's, flute, guitar, bass ect) were better on the Tyros. I also think the vocal processor gives you some interesting options as far as adding an edge to your music.

My friend is leaning towards the Tyros becuase he feels the sounds are better than the korg. He would like the 76 keys instead of the 61 which is his biggest hold back at this point. Which ever you go,
Good luck!

[Leesong]

Also, check out the Yamaha PSR series, especially the 9000 and the 9000Pro.

[p120dUdE]

I am going to recomend the Motif ES8. It has the best of both worlds- great "top" keyboard sounds and great "bottom" keyboard sounds. Plus, it has a great weighted hammer action. It is a great choice. If you don't want a weighted action, then the Motif ES6 and ES7 are the next choices.

Regards,
p120dUdE

[erikfox]

Hello,does anyone have tyros2?can u tell me is it realy good and better than pa1xpro? How are the styles?do they sound real?
please tell me some more about tyros 2...i have pa1xpro and i would like to change it for tyros 2....is it a good idea???

regards erik

[Diego E]

Go to yamaha site and hear the demos. Tyros 2 sounds amazing. I've never heard guitars sound that good out of a synth ever ...
If the next yammi workstation uses the mega voices of the tyros 2 I will definitely look into it.

[Leesong]

Diego,
I now own a PA1XPro and love it! Great sounds, great styles and loaded with features!

[Diego E]

Hi Leesong,

I never played the PA1X Pro, and I'm not looking for an arranger, but I checked out the Tyros 2 demos and I really was blown away by some if its sounds. Especially guitars.

I'm shopping around for a triton extreme and will surely buy a Mac BookPro with Logic, it will be my songwriting rig which is what I'm looking for now. I thought about going with a standalone DAW since computers are not very inspiring for songwriting to me, but with the Korg for laying down basic tracks and then Logic to biuld final demos I could even start producing CD material with them ...

[Audioholic]

Diego E
I hope this isn't too far off topic, but you mentioned that you have some soft synths you are using. I am curious as to which ones you have, and if you ever thought of getting more instead of investing in a hardware instrument. I know for me personally, I have not found a keyboard that matches some of the TOP quality virtual instruments such as makers like East West etc., Apart from maybe some of the patches on the oasis (but not the orchestral sounds in those) In fact most of the professional composers I know (quite a few) basically rely heavily on these, and in fact no longer really use their hardware stuff, except thier hardcore synths like the virus. I have a buddy who comes over, and he has used the yamaha motiff stuff lots, at first he really liked it, but when he compares it to some of the library stuff I have amassed, he totally drools over what comes out of the speakers. I really like the yamaha stuff, but especially when it comes to orchestral sounds, piano sounds, pads etc, I am a sucker for Virtual instruments. I can list what I have if you like, and what I think of each of them, if you were curious as to considering this route, you can also check out my web page to listen to samples and i can tell you what we used if you like the sound. sorry if this is too off topic, but I didn't want a buget like that not consider some killer virtual instruments. Besides for synths like the Virus and roland V-Synth, my money goes to new virtual instruments. I write music for a living.

[Diego E]

Hi Audioholic,

I used to have a PC running cubase SX (one, then version 2) and playing Stylus RMX and Kontact. I've also tried the Sonar / Gigastudio route working with a friend of mine.
I like software a lot in terms of arranging / producing, but in terms of songwriting it just didn't work for me. Call me outdated ... but I like seating in fromt of a keyboard, pressing a button and have nice and inspiring sounds coming out of it. And after 3 years with PC it just didn't happen, mouse, monitor, open tracks, assign routings, etc ... way too much for my inspiration. Besides that, when in front of the PC, I tend to arrange more that write ... then I spend 4 hours trying to make the intro sound full instead of finishing or re writing the song ...

So, last year I was in need of money for non music related issues and sold my PC. What I want to do now is buy a workstation (it will surely be the triton extreme which I found to be very inspiring for me) and then a Mac based studio. Why Mac ? because I'm not good with computers and I want to plug and work.

My idea is to write on the Korg, then go for the computer to produce / arrange. I plan to record live guitars and voice and being able to go other locations to record would be great. I also travel a lot for work (my day job), so a powerbook is a great option to take with me and work in hotels.

So, you are a songwirter, that's great, what kind of music do you write, I would like to hear.

Thanks for your advise amigo.

[Audioholic]

thats interesting, cause for me it was such a huge improvement to step away from the keyboard and sequence in the computer. Now I trigger all my sounds from my keyboard, but I just don't use any of the internal sounds anymore. I like the idea of constantly adding to the sound pallette, synths, orchestral instruments etc. I just love the orchestral sounds that East west puts out, Love em. Talk about inspiring. I found that what i get with hardware based instruments, especially when it comes to real instrument sounds, is kinda cheesy. Its probally because they are not sticking 100 gig hard drives in to hold all the samples. For synths, i still love my Access virus, and roland Vsynth, but atmosphere has pads to just melt over. I compose mainly for music libraries and commercial clients. my website is www.crossingsound.com. It has music both my partner and i wrote.

i think it is all about having a great diverse sound pallette, and not just one to draw from. I like constantly getting new sounds, cause it keeps the inspiration going. So to invest a few hundred in a new soft instrument, versus going out and buying a 2000 dollar keyboard to get new inspiration just works for me. Not that I haven't dropped a lot of cash in my synths, that is where i think hardware instruments rule. Virus, V-synth are all very inspiring. So I guess you have to decide on what type of sounds you will want to use. If it's piano's, pads, orchestral stuff and strings, loops and even drum sounds, software instruments got em beat in my opinion. but if it's the techy, arpegiated sounds you are after, then hardware's got some great offererings. Boars like the yamaha tries to offer the full gamut, real instruments and synths, but the real stuff is lacking.

[Diego E]

I hear you, and I have to agree with you. The piano on the triton extreme or yammi or roland probably won't beat Bossendorfer 290 or Ivory, same with acoustic guitars and things like that. For loops and drums nothing will beat good sample libraries.
That's why I want to go for the best of both worlds. The triton for quick inspiration, and also to have a good board if I want to play live on not carry that much equipment around.
Then the powerbook for recording / arranging and producing. And after that, as soon as my budget allows me to, a roland v-synth, I'm crazy about it.

What soft synths are you using, which plataform ? I will get into you site now.

[Audioholic]

hey Buddy,
for soft synths I am using:

Ivory
East West Collusus
East West Orchestral
Storm drum
Stylus RMX with several Xpansion kits
Atmosphere
Xtreme FX
Kontakt 2 - with several sampling cd's etc
Reason (though I never really use it)

and for hardware stuff:

Access Virus classic
Roland V-Synth XT
Yamaha AN1x
Roland XP-30
Proteus 2000
Alesis DM5
Yamaha A4000 Sampler

then a bunch of acoustic instruments and such....

I pretty much just use the virus and v-synth, and the other hardware stuff, just is there to look pretty. Though Every now and then I will find a killer drum sound or patch in the proteus, that is still a cool little unit.

Its pretty kewl, I have one computer that is my main Pro Tools computer on a Dual 2.0 G5, which I open up instrements on. But I also have an older Mac G4 1.25 that I can also open up additional instruements using an mbox2, so I can have more going at once. For awhile, when I had just one computer, and using multiple VI's, I would find my computer really getting taxed, so I had to bounce to disk a few instruments, then go back and add more later, which I didn't mind so much, but just took a little forthought. Now running the 2 computer setup, I can have more complex instrumentation without taxing the puter as much. I know a few composers who use multiple computer set-ups when it comes to maxing out Virtual instruments. It works great when its all up and running.

I am hoping to add a few more Virtual Instruments later, like East West RA, and a few others. I am addicted

I hope this does not come off as showing off what I have, I usually try to keep that stuff on the downlow, but I couldn't be happier with the Virtual lnstruements and such, and just wanted to share what is working for me thus far.

[Diego E]

Thanks man, don't worry, I didn't feel it like you were trying to show off.
I've worked with most of the soft synths you have and I know they're great. Funny, I had Reason and didn't use it too much either ...

I'm still a couple of months away from having my budget ready to invest, so, once I start buying my stuff I will let you know what I'm getting. I've already took note of your internet site so I'll drop by and contact you again.

The music I heard there sounds great, looks like you know what you're doing. And you have a great set up with the two macs. What DAW are you using for midi programming, also Pro Tools ? I plan to go the Logic route starting with the express version, I know it has a steep learning curve ... but it is a very complete pack.

Thanks again buddy.

[Audioholic]

I sequence in Pro tools, and I am proud of it :-). I have tried all the above, and since i use PT for audio, it just made sense to keep it there. Besides pro tools midi has caught up with everyone else in my opinion, I love it ,wouldn't be happier using anything else... In version 7, they added some of my minor gripes with the midi in pro tools, so i am a happy camper.

[Audioholic]

I just wanted to add that logic is also great, it is a bit ackward for me just because i have been so inclined towards PT, but I worked in a studio where the other composer used logic, and he hated the fact that i was using PT. so i had to learn logic also, and it worked, just not quite as fast for audio for me, but midi was a snap to learn bassically..

[Frostbyterian]

I just need to jump in here regarding the Korg Pa1XPro.

I have one in my studio, and I love it. I find it exceptionally well suited to songwriting.

Mind you, my studio is crammed with keyboards, a couple of macs, basses, etc... So it is not as if I have nothing else to use. But when I want to sit down with a clean palette and start bashing ideas about, the Pa1X is great. Once I get a simple progression that I like in the backing sequencer, I can try using various different Styles. Usually, I just start looking for a rhythm pattern and bass line that i like, and then start turning other parts up. Also, it is very easy to copy something like a horn part from one style to another style, so you can use the "lego" method of building up some backing.

The big advantage here is that as my song evolves, all i need do is plug in chord substitutions, and instantly all my backing tracks are altered as well, I do not need to go into a linear sequncer and re-write eight parts.

Now, once I have everything the way I want it, I will record that as a reference onto the multi-track and build up the song around it. So the Pa1XPro may not be the final mix itself, but as a starting point, it is phenomenal.

Here I will admit that I often set up a Pa1XPro mix of just the guitar patterns from a style and fly those into my recording to fill out the mix without dragging out the (vox) amp and mic'ing things up.

One other thing I will mention about the Pa1XPro: While I have no intention of using it as a one-man-band instrument, it is very expressive to play "live" in realtime. The RX engine has sounds that do up to five way velocity switches, so double-tounging a flute solo, doing guitar hammer ons, harmonics and pull-offs, letting a trumpet bell empty of air naturally as opposed to just stopping, all these things are very useful when laying down an imitative acoustic solo line.

Okay, sorry if I went on a bit, but I have been watching this conversation unfold and needed to add my four cents.

- Frost

p.s. it is also the instrument that I wll play alone through headphones to work on ideas, without having to fire up the rack, the computer, etc...

[Diego E]

Well, I'm back home (Argentina) after a week in Seattle, I spent two full mornings at a GC playing a bucnh of keyboards. Before geting there I was leaning towards the Triton Extreme, I played it again and it's a good keyboard, nice key bed, lots of sounds and the touchscreen makes sequencing easy. But looking for a 'songwirter' oriented keyboard I was pleasently surprised by the MO6 (no MO8s in store). The sounds, combis and arpeggios are very very inspiring ... The screen and layout of the UI might not be the best, but guys, bung for the buck and considering I will go for a MacBook Pro / Logic system, the MO6 seems to be the way to go. $ 1200 ... not much more to think.
Played the Korg TR 61 ... not bad sounds but very cheap key bed ... much worst than the MO6.
Played the PA1X Pro, it's good, I see how inspiring an arranger keyboard can be, but it's still expensive and having to choose an arranger I think both the Tyros 2 and G70 are more advanced and have best sounds than the PA1.
Spent quite some time playing the Korg Oasys, out of my league but I have to say I was not blown away by the sounds ... I mean, they're very good, but ...
The Fantom X is a great board too but didn't find it that inspiring for songwriting ...
And finally, spent some time playing a V-Synth XT, man !!! that keyboard is just awesome and will surely make it into my studio at some point. I think I will end up going with the MacBook / Logic + MO6 and then the V-synth later on.

[Slovenec]

The Korg PA1Xpro is a fantastic arranger workstation. Sure, some of the acoustic instruments in the new Yamaha Tyros 2 are better but honestly IMHO compared to the Korg, the Yamaha is more difficult to get to grips with. I also found the Korg had better sounding accompaniments than the Tyros when I compared both in a shop. Of course this is only personal taste.

Another option to check out is the Roland G70. Its very easy to use for a Roland board and contains some great sounds, accompaniments and features including those great organ drawbars and a nice big touchscreen.

Apparently a newer model (61 notes with speakers) called the E80 is also going to be released.

Personally I really like the Korg keyboards because I find them easy to get around. They have a great gui.

[Leesong]

I would definitely agree with Slovenec and Frostbyterian concerning the PA1X-Pro. I like the sounds, the styles, and the features that make arranging my songs relatively easy.

[Slovenec]

I mucked around with the Tyros 2 on 2 occassions and found it confusing to use. I know Id work it out quickly enough if an experienced user showed me but Im the kind of person who likes a keyboard if I can use it more or less straight away without having to open the manual!!!!

Ive always found Korg workstations the easiest to use and get around (have owned alot of Korg gear from the T3 onwards!).

I never opened the manual for the Trinity Plus which I owned a few years back and only opened the manual for the Triton to work out how to properly use the 'cuelist' function in the sequencer!

When I played the PA1X in a shop, I was able to make some nice music from it straight away by just selecting a style and playing. Yes I know the other workstations do the same but Korg equipment to me is just more 'logical' to use.

Regarding the styles on the PA1X, out of it, the G70 and Tyros 2 which I tried out side by side, the Korg had IMHO by far the most 'natural' sounding styles and the drum programming was awesome. IMHO I found the styles in the Yamaha and Roland, whilst still very good, more 'plastic'(!) to listen to. I must admit I do like the G70 alot and a friend of mine gave me a great tour of his which he uses live. Its got some awesome sounds and yes, both the G70 and Tyros 2 have better acoustic piano sounds than the Korg!!!! Polyphony wise both also beat the Korg with 128 notes rather than 62. However Korgs oscilator structure only allows for up to 2 oscillators to be layered or velocity switched at the one time so I suppose that the polyphony could be less of an issue due to the Yamaha and Roland using up to 4 oscillators per program/patch.

I read about a new Roland arranger (E80) being released this year some time. The picture looks suspiciously like a PA1X on steroids with the speakers placed in the same position! It also contains the great G70 drawbars and touchscreen. Im curious to know if anyone has played one and how it compares with a G70 and the PA1X???? Apparently a special expansion board is also being released for the G70 with extra sounds and styles.

If I was forced to by an arranger keyboard today, I would really be in a dilemma because all 3 companies make great keyboards. But no doubt, Id spring for the Korg in the end because of my familarity with Korg and the face I like its sound! :)

[Diego E]

Hi guys, my budget for purchasing will be ready in about a month. I was walking the music stores today and came accross two boards.
Roland V-Synth and Motif 7, they are both used and in very good condition. The store is asking for $ 2000 each, I know it will sound expensive for you but this is Argentina, and import duties and taxes can go up to 60% of the product value. Over here I'd have to pay $ 2800 for a Triton Extreme 61 and almost $ 4000 for a Motif ES 7 ... that without considering the fact that this V-Synth is the ONLY ONE around this town, for sure, stores are not importing it ...
I think I can get both boards for $ 3600 or $ 3700 if I fight a little with the guy.

What do you think ? I would have a great workstation, not easy to operate but still with great sounds most of all pianos, and an amazing board like the V-Synth (not sure what software version it has but I can load version 2 on the internet, right?.

My budget still will allow for a new MacBook Pro with Logic.

[Slovenec]

Diego E.

Is it a Motif ES7 or Motif Classic 7 (the first model).

Do you really need 2 keyboards or will just 1 keyboard be right for songwriting.

IMHO, I think that whilst both the Motif 7 and V Synth are great in their own right, I think you will defeat the purpose of having a good songwriting set up by buying 2 synths just because they are cheaper than perhaps buying 1 Triton Extreme.

IMHO The V Synth is not a synthe you would use for songwriting or demos It is not a workstation but it is a very powerful VA synth with a smattering of other Roland technologies thrown in such as the elastic audio sampling etc etc. Ive tried a V Synthe on a number of occassions and whilst it is no doubt a very powerful machine, I think it is way to complicated to get to grips with and frankly the factory patches were a big let down. However you dont buy a V Synth because of its factory sounds as it is a synth that MUST be programmed. Is the V Synth you saw a VERSION 2 keyboard as Roland have a free software update to Version 2 which adds a number of new features to what is already a very capable synthesizer.

Regarding the Motif- $2,000 would be an awesome price to pay for a Motif7ES but would be quite expensive for the classic Motif 7. The ES version is a huge step up from the classic in terms of sound. Whilst the classic Motif is a great keyboard, I think that it is perhaps a bit old now and you would be better of spending $3,600 on one newer workstation such as a Triton Extreme or buying a Motif ES for a good price.

Dont buy 2 very different synthes just because it seems like a good deal. Buy 1 synth/workstation that you will use to its fullest potential!!!!! Perhaps get just the V Synth to use for its powerful synthesis and processing (make sure its got the Version 2 update!!!) and then use your Logic Pro/Macbook set up for songwriting. Or alternatively buy the 76 key classic Motif to use for its sounds and as a great controller. Both the Motif and V Synth has nice unweighted action keyboards.

If you buy just one of these synths then you will have more money to put into your computer based setup perhaps buying some choice plug ins or softsynths. I highly recommend Sampletank 2.1XL or Sonic Synth 2 by IK Multimedia for great 'bread and butter' workstation sounds inside your computer. Of course Logic Pro on its own comes with fantastic factory fx and synth plug ins. I wouldnt be afraid to use just Logic Pro and its supplied plugs for songwriting and demos. (Yes I do own Logic Pro).

Alternatively you could purchase extra fx plug ins not already inside Logic such as some more analogue sounding eqs or dynamics- say someting from Waves, PSP, Nomad Factory etc etc etc.

Another great option would be to look at a TC Powercore (not the PCIA card of course as you will be using a laptop!!!):

Of course if you decide to go the V synth/Motif route you will also be very happy. But like I said, dont buy these 2 keyboards just because you can get them for a good price!!!!!!!! Buy only that what you need and IMHO just 1 decent controller keyboard should suffice.

Whichever route you choose to take, you cant go wrong with todays technology!1! GOOD LUCK!:)

[Diego E]

Hi Slovenec, thansk for your time man ... You always come up with focused and down to earth input, I really appreciate that a lot.

The Motif is a classic one. Keep in mind, as I said, the prices here in Argentina are expensive ...
As for the V-Synth, I don't know ... I like it and I think I can give good use of it when playing live ... but the truth is that so far there are very few chances of playing live and I really need to focus in songwriting ... and for that matter, one workstation is more than enough ... You made me think man ... !!

What I can get here is the Triton Extreme 61 for $ 2800 ... the 76 for $ 3100 and both can go maybe $ 100 / $ 200 down if paying cash ... There's and ES7 but the guys are asking for $ 4000 ... I don't think it is worth $1000 more than the Extreme. And I like the Extreme better for laying down sketch tracks and ideas without the need to turn on my computer.

Thanks again !! I will check and see what I can get for the Extreme ...

[Audioholic]

while I think the more toys the better, especially the more different sounding toys like the Vsynth and the motif and such, a good point was brought up. Once again, maybe think about what you want to use each board for. If its for sequencing as a workstation and more general sound set, get the motif or xtreme. If you want to use virtual instruments for your general sounds and have a nice synth, get the V synth. I still think VI's have the best piano and orchestra stuff hands down. I have the XT, which is a little different then the original v synth, but i totally dug the factory presets, were inspiring to me, and also the other tweakable features are nice. Is the V synth board multitimberal? glad to hear the date is getting closer! how exciting. I love new gear. more please

[Diego E]

I will use the keyboard for 2 main functions> quick songwriting, I mean laying down a few tracks and come up with new and inspiring ideas without the need to turn the computer on. And second, live playing, even though I'm not doing it that much lately ... but I will need bread and butter sounds.
I've been playing a triton extreme yesterday and even though it is behind the motif es (and even the classis) in terms of acoustic sounds, it is amazing how fast you can work ideas out with the sequencer ... And it has tons of very inspiring combis.

I think I will go for the extreme 76, if I then need better acoustic sounds for live playing (because I will have acoustic sounds well covered with software) I might just buy a motif es rack or something like that ...
The V-Synth would be more kind of a luxury ... maybe for later on ...

I''m very excited that my budget is about to be ready ... I can't wait ...

[Aahx]

Seeing as you now seem more inclined towards the Extreme, and that you said in an earlier post that you had liked the inspirational aspect of the Karma. I thought I would mention that with the extreme you can get Karma I tech using the Karma Triton software in conjuction with an Extreme. This is just in case you were unaware of that possiblity mind you.

http://www.karma-lab.com/ <== here for info.

[RickD92254]

In 30 years of buying/playing keyboards, I've never returned one to the store until I got my Motif ES7.
Worst sounding piece of garbage (next to the S80!) I ever bought.

Worst raw piano samples... no brilliance, no punch.
Tinny brass and poorly recorded strings that are hard to use in recordings.

Just read the MOTIFATOR forum: You'll see TONS of ES owners 'raving' about their ES,yeah, but...if you really notice: Every one of them complains about one thing or another i.e. strings, pianos, etc...

Put it all together, and people on that forum complain about EVERY sound on the MOTIF.
And for good reason. They stink.

[Limitless]

If your only gonna get two boards for this get:
Triton Extreme 76: It has the karma sounds in it, along with other Korg
essentials, and get the Roland V-Synth XT, if you get it before December 31st
you get the D50 card for free, you could put together anything with this combination! Then add some plugin cards to both and voila!!!
One board, one portable rack module that doubles as a desktp unit.
The sampling capabilities of both these units would keep you busy for quite a
while...........