Where to record drums?

[Hynek]

Knowing how complicated this issue can get I'll try to keep the question as simple as possible.

What works better for you personally?

-to record the kit in a dry room that allows you to add space later electronically

or do you take it for cyber-head manipulation and rather

-record the kit in a room you think sounds good

accepting the restriction there will be something "definitive" to your tracks once recorded and you'll have less space for "creating art" (adapting the sound to the artistic intention in your head)?

Thanks for your time!

[michaelhoddy]

If the live room fits the desired effect, I'd go for the live room every time. A shorter decay, ambient room is nice in general because you can always add longer artificial reverbs if necessary, and the sound isn't dead out of the box. Cavernous spaces or halls aren't too useful because they muddy up the sound 9 times out of 10.

If you can get a room, kit, and player where the drums sound amazing just in the room, you're 90 percent of the way there. It's very hard to screw up that kind of sound, even with substandard equipment or bad recording technique. On the other hand, it's a fight to the end even with the best equipment to get a great sound with a bad or indifferent room.

I used to have this room that sounded like a short plate reverb. It was awesome on drums all the time. Right now, I'm building a smaller room with a lot of diffusers that will hopefully allow me to get some punch to the drumkit sound without a lot of reflection or too long a decay. We'll see how it comes out.

[Hynek]

So can I say that with the empty room given, you'd damp the walls to some extent yet wouldn't damp it to death?

[michaelhoddy]

Depends a lot on the room, but for a smaller, semi-live room, which I like for drums because it gives them some decent punch without too much decay, you have to contend with comb filtering (especially if you have parallel walls) and bass nodes beyond belief.

A combination of bass traps and diffusers can give the same room a greater sense of space without losing the liveness, and while also taking care of nodal problems and reflective issues (like comb filtering and slap echo).

Foam generally isn't the answer.

[LTA]

Also, try moving the drums into different positions in the room. Even in full-blown professional studios designed by big name engineers, there will be places where the drums sound less than ideal. Two areas in general to shy away from are corners and the exact center of the room (unless you want that sound of course).

With drums, the room is part of the instrument. Take the kick and snare, and move them around until they "sound good." Listen more for the fundamentals, and try to ignore the "ambiance." There are points in every room in which the room nodes will support (or detract) from the bottom end of the instrument in a desirable manner.

If you can visualize the room floor (if it is rectangular) being divided up into 1/3's and 1/5's on both the x and y axis, every point at which those lines cross is potentially a good starting point. This technique is based on nodal frequencies of a room, btw, and is completely arbitrary. But i just gave you 36 points to start your search. I will say this though. Better studios have bigger sweet spots. If you can find the good spot in a bad room, working with a good live room will be cake.

And with "bad" rooms, you will want to take into account the critical distance of the room. Try to keep your overhead mics specifically at or closer to the drums than the critical distance.

I do most of my tracking in non-ideal rooms. I've found that in a standard dwelling room (low ceilings) you can clean up the imaging greatly just by affixing a sound blanket or two on the ceiling directly above the drums. This so far has worked for me better than just putting absorbtion up on the walls or surrounding the drums with gobo's (although both those techniques do work well).

Also, have fun with the 3:1 rule. If you are working with an 8' ceiling, and the hypothetical vertical center of the drum kit is 3 feet off the ground, try to keep your overheads at least 2.5' away from the ceiling. Basically, the ceiling reflection will travel 5 feet from source to the ceiling, then bounce back and hit the mics 2.5' later, for a total travel distance of 7.5'. Since your mics are 2.5' above the drumset, there is a 3:1 ratio between the direct sound and the reflection. Just something cheap to mess with. Think about it.

Unless you are dealing with concrete or cinderblock walls and floors, many rooms can yield acceptable results. You just have to attempt to adjust to the situation.

[Hynek]

That's a load LTA! Thanks a bunch!
During my latest drum sessions in this cellar I can use freely I discovered that the room sound surely didn't destroy the tracks yet I wouldn't say it was supportive. As a matter of fact I agree with you in the ceiling dampening point. I realized too late that I screwed it up a bit by skiping this part and devoting myself so much in covering the walls.
I'd still love to try to record drums in a dead room somewhere. Just to see (hear) what it takes you know. I'm aware that would make it rather a recording "lab" but I'm so curious.

In these "imperfect" rooms, do you use room mics or do you add reverb to the tracks?


Skipping the crosses that the thirds and fifths have in common, we have 34 not 36, right? :) Just teasing. Thank you very much, LTA!

[LTA]

6x6 = 36. Keep in mind some of those points are too close to the wall to actually use, and some other points are really close together. Draw a picture or throw down some tape on your living room floor if you get bored :)

I treat room mics and overheads as two different items. If i have the tracks to do it, i will definately run room mics. I try not to mix anything on location, since it is so hard to get the balance right in the field. And just because you record it doesn't mean you need to use it.

Dead rooms seem like a good idea, but i believe there is an interaction between the drum and the room. The room influences the drum. If you want to experiment with a dead "room", take the drums outside and record there. No early reflections or room nodes out there =) Just have to deal with environmental noise and neighbors out there. Drum set will record thin outside, especially if you set up on the grass. Having a stage riser helps alot, but gets away from the dead room you want to mess around with.

I will use artificial reverb on specifically snare, and sometimes other elements. As they say, it all depends. A big snare sound will make the drums as a whole sound bigger. You can also compress and eq the room mics and try to get a bigger sound. Some rooms will never give up a good room mic sound, so if it doesn't work out, don't worry about it.

[Hynek]

4+16+8+8=36 Shame on me!! :) (at least I made it without moving all furniture out of my living room)

Thanks again. The light came in my darkest hour. I was beginning to actually believe I can never achieve any good recording in an ordinary room. Now I finally see the guys from the big time studios are shameless liars :D

BTW, right here somewhere not long ago somebody posted really warm response on his recent recording outside. Might be a way too...

Until I try, so long, H

[DAS]

I think you will find that each room has an overall character that isn't fundamentally changed by where you are in the room. Yes, these points are valid about finding the sweet spot, and those spots do exist in most rooms, but they only exist relative to the "non sweet" spots.

If you are putting mics on an acoustic drum set, for example, you'll never entirely be able to remove the fundamental character of the room from the recording...assuming you are going for a semi-typical drum sound in a semi-typical mix. You can do a heck of a lot with artificial reverb later, but those overheads still captured the size, shape, and sound of the space - it's in there.

I don't mean to suggest it can't sound good - it CAN sound great - it's just a matter of working with the reality of the sound you have, and pushing it in the direction it needs to go with the tools you have available. That's where skill comes in to play.

[Hynek]

I think you're right and in my case nothing keeps me from saying that my own limited experience is the first thing to blame.
It makes me think of this guy (was it the producer of Blur's last release?) who ran a mic (or mics - don't remember) in a plastic bag in front of the kit through heavy compression and obviously it wasn't harmful. That clearly is a case of total abuse of the "room" mic and still it can work well if you have the EARS!

[LTA]

BTW, i wasn't trying to denounce expensive well designed live rooms. If you can afford it, that is definately the way to go for drums. In a good room, bleed between sources sounds better, and you can use more ambient techniques to get a bigger drum sound.

A small room (like a bedroom or den) will always sound like a small room. No amount of reverb will change that. 800 square foot+ live rooms will sound completely different. The well designed room will impart less coloration on the tone, allowing more tweeking to taste. Whenever i track in a less than ideal room, i don't think about how it would sound at oceanway or streeterville. If budget allowed, i WOULD black out 3+ days in a big studio, rent hotel rooms, and get catered food. Im just into optimizing what i have to work with. Pro rooms are very nice, but you can get good results in lesser spaces too.

[Hynek]

I'm sorry you had to write the last post. I was kidding with the big studios thing of course. I hoped I'd be gotten right:)

[samcurry]

to me the right room make all the difference. like it was said earlier if its good 90% of the recording cleanup is done.

[Hynek]

OK, we've slipped off the path.

HOW do you RECOGNIZE the "RIGHT" ROOM??

If you're about to say "by listening to the kit in there" I must inform that my ears simply haven't reached the quality to tell me what would the kit sound like on the record.
If I asked "What is 'the right room'?" I'm sure few of you would be able to provide me with an answer in English.

[drumguy]

I've found that a dry room is better then a bad room!

I can't afford to build a good room at the point. but the basement in my house is paneled and has a drop ceiling, both with insulation behind it, and it's carpeted. Squares are usually bad, but there's alot of junk in there that helps keep me from having problems.

The drums sound naturally good in this room, just not huge. So I've got a clean tone that I can add a bit of verb to and make it sound pretty decent. It'll never be as good as if I had a nice drum room, but it's not bad either!

[reignstorm]

Michael Hoddy...
You talked about a room you were building specifically for drums. Can you tell us what this room will be like?? Dimensions...treatment...etc??

Thanks,
Darren

[Screws]

There is no such room as a truly "dead" room. Some kind of ambience almost always exists. The issue is to learn whether the reflections are lows, mids, highs or some combination of them and to use them to your benefit.

An engineer I worked with in the 70's used to play tracks into the studio at a "live performance" level, and then walk around the room just listening. He'd go near the walls, into the middle and into the corners to hear what was coming back at him. He built a drum platform in the corner that gave him the most even response of tone.

Use your ears.

[Mical]

I was taught by a "master" {Rick Rooney of Planet Dallas Rec. Studios} to mic a kit with a variety of mics & positions - provided you have the tracks to work with in a room & angled in that room facing bright side (window, doors). You can always add ambience but we strive to get pristene sounds and clarity. I hate mixes where the snare sounds like a paper cup. Provided the artist/producer gives the final approval - we like to have the options of letting them hear the differences between the combinations of mics. For Rick it's a signature of his work.

[Gooberschmort]

Hello All

This is a very cool and poignant subject for me. Sweet spots and such are what I have to keep in mind pretty heavily now. I didn't always.

I just moved out of a barn this past August and into a place where I created a great control room but have no specific tracking rooms. It's an office area.

The barn was great because everything had an awesome natural sound. The upstairs where my control room lived was open to the rest of the floor and I got a great pure sound from the wood and it was beautiful for the vocals and percussion and acoustic guitars.

The downstairs was awesome for drums, (and I was hoping to use it for brass and small vocal groups). It was a finished wood for the walls and ceiling with a cement floor, which I thought would be horrible, but when I clapped and tested I heard the most wonderful warm reverb without a million overtones and such.

I recorded 4 drummers down there and wish I still had that room. It was like a dream for setting up mics and such. I once had a drummer too close to one wall and that put too much junk on the snare but we moved him out and it just cleaned up and shone so well.

The problem with the barn was it had no heat and air so there was too many times I could not record. In addition to that it was 45 minutes from my house so periodically I lost the desire to drive out or the edge by the time I got there, (especially when it was too hot or cold).
In addition we dealt with bugs and some dirt, (it was a barn after all).

Now we have agreed to a studio in the church I work at. There is other production I have been encouraging there so it was natural to bring my studio into proximity with it. I had the chance to create the best control room in the new place, (personal expense on my part), with the help of Auralex and some folks at the church who knew what I wanted for lighting and such. (I had to turn off the flourescents. Ugly things).

I have recorded several drums in some of the adjacent offices now. I have a buddy who had a futon mattress just sitting around and he gave it to me to use for some dampening, and we had some loose partitions from when folks create those little office booths so i could change some flat walls and such, but I still like using the reflections most times. If necessary the futon and partions may cover part of a wall but then I have to be careful not to kill too much of it.

I will move the drums into a room and then we tune them a little if necessary to help with any problems of sympathetic frequencies. That usually cleans it up nicely so if you have a drummer with a good ear for tuning that helps a lot.

Actually, that's the big deal.
Gotta start with three essential tools, a drummer who knows how to tune, (or learn that art yourself. I had to), a drummer who knows how to play, and a drum set that is worth the trouble. At any given time you can overcome some of these things not in place but it helps to start with those three things.

Then it helps to have good mics and then a good room, but you may never have all these things in place till you've had time to grow them. I still borrow some mics for bigger sessions.

I love this recording stuff and have always loved making drums sing, though I am not a drummer. I have always loved the sound and the possibilities.

I don't know if any of this helps but I guess we all have to deal with what we have for a while no matter what. Try your stuff. See what needs to change. Try to accomodate the needs.

Most of all, have a great time with it!
Music should be a blast, no matter how much of a pain it can be at times.:scared:

Jim

[asghar]

I think it is all a matter of the sound you look for.
Usually you need for drums a room with not a long early reflection (try the handclap test), decay time depends on your taste or better say the sound you are looking for.
You can expriment with picking the sound in other rooms connected to your main room.
Here a little story: the late John Bohnham of Led Zep. recorded the Drums for I think fourth album, by placing the drumkit in emegency exit staircase of Bauer Studios, picking the sound in addition to drum mikes, a floor below and a floor above mixing the whole thing without any extra effects together!