Mic pre-amps HELP!!

[Getgo]

Help fellow studio folks. I have been recording my lead vocal on my personal project and I am not happy with the results. I have used a 4033, 4051, sm58, sm57 and an EV 257A. All were ran through my Mackie 1604 mic pre into the DBX 166A and the 257A track sounded the best. I have speculated that I am not getting the best performance out of the 4033 because of the inferior Mackie pre. Any suggestions or opinions on a mic pre?

[Coerce]

Getgo-
Need some further information first. What about the sounds do you not like? What are you looking to spend on the mic pre (it ranges from a few hundred to many, many thousands!). How are you gain staging through the Mackie? Is the dbx on an insert? I'm not fond of Mackies but you should be able to get decent sounds from the 4033 especially if the board is a VLZ version.

The front end is one of the most important aspects you can easily improve upon but make sure you are getting enough out of what you have first.

let us know and I'm sure you will get detailed answers...

[Getgo]

Kevin, Thanks for the reply,
I am looking for more presence in the vocal. Mine seem to lack the liveness and fullness that many of the "pro-recordings" have. My mackies are the original 1604's, not VLZ. I am running into the mackie and using a fair amount of gain then out the channel direct to the 166A (4:1) and direct to adat. I have read that some use no compression but I am a pretty dynamic singer and fear that the vocal track would be a mess! I have tried my Art tube mp and I didn't like the sound ( darkness) that I seemed to get with that. I am monitoring with a pair of Mackie HR-824's. I do not have the resources fo the upper end mic-pre's but would be willing to spend up to $500 (or lease high quality?) to get the presence I am looking for.

[Nika]

Getgo,

I'm not a big fan of tube mic pres in this price range, but it sounds like you haven't had much luck with pres-of-color anyway.

You might try something just ultra quiet and ultra clean. This fits into my own personal paradigm of recording, as I believe that most of our efforts in "fixing" the vocal parts in recordings are more often just trying to fix the character in the pieces we used to actually record it. By going with something clean you will often be surprised at how good the human voice actually sounds.

For these types of recordings you can't go wrong with either a Grace 101 or an Earthworks LAB101 mic pre.

If you're looking for something with pizazz, though, my customers have been very happy with about anything from Presonus. You might try a VXP.

I hope this helps!
Nika.

[Getgo]

Nika,
I think I get what you are driving at, A very transparent, and quality pre will let the mic's true character and the vocals actual sound through without any coloration. I will research the ones you have mentioned and still welcome other's comments/or experience with this problem. Does the compressor color the sound as well? I am using a DBX 166A with a ratio of 4:1 Thanks, JW

[Nika]

There are some compressors that color the sound by making the compression very "obvious", and this gives you a very "moving" feeling, as though the music is pumping and breathing. There are also compressors that color the sound just because their inbound and outbound circuitry affects the frequency response of the signal. Some very good tube compressors roll off everything above about 12kHz. Others add some low mid warmth at around 250Hz.

So, "yes", compressors add color. There are some that sound very "compressed", but don't affect the frequency response, and there are the opposite. Then there are those that affect both frequency response AND the compression itself quite a bit, and there are those that are nearly transparent in both regards, even with fairly high ratios.

The absolutely most transparent compressors are also some of the most expensive, and it can be a frustrating buying experience to buy a box that costs several thousands of dollars but has almost no audible imprint on the sound at all! Having said this, in my own studio this type of compressor is the type of tool I need. For other people, the sonic character of the compressor is as much a part of the sound they are looking for as the microphone itself, and they choose a compressor that has a very stark character to it.

Now as for my personal opinion on the 166A, I think that this compressor is fairly obvious, and especially at the ratio you are using it at. I'd sooner recommend not using any compression for tracking and figuring out how it sounds with just a good mic and mic pre. Then determine if, and how much compression and what type of compression is appropriate for what you are doing.

Does this help?

Thanx!
Nika.

[Getgo]

Nika,
thanks for the help. It looks as though I should try some vocal tracks without the compressor for now and try to refine my front end as I decide on a pre that will fit my needs and budget. Do you like the HHB Radius 50? I have access to one to try and thought it might be worth checking out. It is a tube though,,, So I may have the same problem with the coloring. Thanks again,

[Nika]

The Radius 50 is not any closer to the "clean" signal path it sounds like you are looking for. It is definitely (nicely) colored.


Thanx!
Nika.

[mightypudge]

I have had great success with the Focusrite Platinum Voicemaster.

[cjogo]

Grace/Earthworks or Buzz very natural------a used TC Gold Channel,,,,, great for the price with good presets and a fairly decent DIG I/O--->>>What price range? Langevin has great pre's and then from there the price, unfortunatley climbs




cjogo

[blue_sky]

get neve 1272

[Coerce]

While I agree that the 1272's are great he did mention he was looking for something under $500. (If you know where I can get 1272 for under this let me know!!!!!!!).

The Grace or Earthworks suggestion was very good. Perhaps a little over the $500 mark but worth it. You may also try to find a used Peavey VMP-2. Yes, it is tube (all in the audio path from what I understand as well) but it is very clean. I've been meaning to pick one up after I used it for a little while some time ago. Very nice. I also understand that Mark McQuilken will be releasing the Very Nice Mice Pre in the short future. He is the owner of FMR audio of the RNC fame. It should fit your price range and if it's anything like the quality/price ratio of the RNC than it's worth the wait.

[cjogo]

Marks' (FMR) new mic pre should be the best @ that price--not sure when we can expect this gem---but we know his track record---yes 1272 if your budget allows



thanks kindly
cjogo

[Ernest828]

I love to talk about mic pre`s. We can talk forever & nothing will ever get settled so...
buy "THE 3D PRE CD". Go to www.3daudioinc.com and check it out.

What is clean to one person is not neccesarily clean to another. But being that you seem
to have decent mics (AT 4033) you really shouldn`t have a major problem getting decent
vocals. This 2 CD collection will clear up alot of the questions you have concerning mic
pre`s.

It sounds like you want to go with a solid state piece instead of tubes but listening to
these CD`s, you may surprised by what you prefer. Sometimes the $8000 pre sounds
like the $500. It all depends on your ears and what you like, not how much you spend.

I used an AT 4050 and a Neumann TLM 103 with an APHEX 107 Mic Pre ($350) for
sometime and then I got serious. I purchased an AVALON VT 737SP ($2100).
I thought the APHEX sounded good until I heard the AVALON with the same mic!
I`m not saying the APHEX is bad, (because I still use it to record stereo material)
but when you hear it next to the AVALON with the same material, that openness and
fullness you are trying to capture is just there and it`s beautiful.

You say you don`t have the $$$ though so you could do one of the following:

1. Suck up for sometime and save up for something you love.
(It took me 3 years. Yikes!)

2. Get out there and audition every mic pre for your budget.
Whats it around $500-$600?

For that budget you should seriously hear:
The ART Mic Pre`s (from the simple $100 piece to the Tube Channel ($525)
These pieces are nice for the price and "warm" sounding.

PreSonus MP20 ($649) Alot clearer, I think you`ll like this better. For the price
this is an exceptional mic pre!

If you decide to wait and save some cash, check out these:
EarthWorks
Aphex 1100 (This piece is clean.)
Avalon (From my experience, the 737 is endless)
Grace Designs (I`ve heard good stuff about this from industry pro`s)
Great River (Same as the Grace stuff)
Martech (This is a beauty. If it didn`t cost so damn much, I`d buy a dozen:))

Let me know what the deal is. Peace and Happy Shopping!

[Getgo]

Thanks Ernest'
As of now, I am simply reading all the posts that I get and looking for consistant and proven performers. There are SO many products out there and I dont want to buy/sell/ move up over and over til I get what I'm looking for. I appreciate all the comments I get from you folks. I wish I could say that I'm closer to a decision but I am really going to go against my usual method and try to research this thing thoroughly. Thanks:confused:

[Nika]

Ernest,

I have to admit, you have me surprised! Your post about preamps caught me off guard!

The preamps that you mentioned generally fell into the exquisitely clean, transparent, crystal clear, solid state, class A designed preamp only boxes - except for one: the one you own!

The VT737Sp is probably the most transparent of all of the tube preamps that I've heard, but I wouldn't put it in the same classification as the others. I think it generally is more akin to a Manley Voxbox or a Tubetech something or a Summit box. It is very different from anything from Grace, Earthworks, Great River, Martech, etc. As a complete vocal channel, it is a great value and a great box, with good tube circuitry, a preamp, eq, and compressor. It's still VERY different sounding from the others.

The others that you mention fall into the category of ones capable of being used for classical or jazz recording - completely transparent designs. Avalon does make one that fits this bill as well. It is the M5 (or as a stereo version, the AD2022). This is an ultra clean, ultra flat, class A discreet, +4dBu unbalanced output, transformerless box. For someone looking for this type of box, I'd happily recommend the solid state Avalon stuff. I have a pair that I purchased after doing a serious mic pre listening test myself. It is one of my best investments.

I describe the sound of the M5 as very transparent and without any exaggeration, without any rolloff, but with a very "complete" sound. Not "warm" per se, but rather very "full" - almost making you say "ahhh". Still, it sounds very much like the Grace or the Earthworks. just with a touch of a comfortable *sigh*.


Having said this, it is not for everyone. The 737 is a great box and a great value. For some this is a more appropriate sound.

I strongly agree with Ernest that you're best off saving your duckets for the RIGHT box rather than making several poor financial decisions that will be jettisoned off along the way.


Those are my thoughts.

Nika.

[Ernest828]

Yeah thats cool. There`s so much out there so... take your time.
I seriously recommend your purchase those tow CD`s and I
know you`ll get a better idea for what you want.

When I finally made a decision on which pre amp would give me
my sound I went with the AVALON which I never heard before
except on the 3D PRE CD. My decision was based on what I was
hearing from industry pro`s as well as what my own ears were
telling me. Looking back, I`m glad I waited the three years.

Take your time!

[Getgo]

Well it looks as though this is going to take some time. I tried the Presonus MP-20 and took it back. While it was clean, it lacked any personality? Gotta get my hands on that mic-pre cd.:confused:

[SR1200]

I dont think sweetwater sells it (but i think they should look into carrying this line!!!) Behringer makes a kick *** tube pre in your price range. If you can, try it out. You could also try getting a different mic.... I like my R0DE NT-1 (inexpensive...sounds great...large diaphragm) also, I might reccomend going with a different compressor. I never liked the DBX compression or noise reduction. Again Behringer makes a great compressor (tube and solid) and I actually like one of the cheapest compressors out there the Alesis 3630. I got 2 of em in my rack. THeyre simple and I dont think they color the sound as much (well as much as somethign else in that proce range)

[Getgo]

Well everyone, I raided my buddies mic closet (much better than his undies drawer) And conducted a little test. I used six mics and cut six tracks with vocal and used the old Mackie 1604 pre to the dbx and had some interesting results. The mics used are;
EV PL-20
Shure SM-7
AKG C414 EB
ADK A-51
Rode NT-1
Audio Technica 4033
Through MY gear in MY room with MY vocal and with MY ears I liked the RODE NT-1 WOW!!! I am really impressed. I then ran it through my cheap little Tube MP and even more WOW!! I would never have guessed that a mic that inexpensive would sound that good for ME. I am ordering one right away and wonder if anyone has used the Rode NT-3??
Also, how about a Mackie 1202 vlz pro as a stereo mic pre??

[SR1200]

All I have to say is, R0DE KICKS A**!!!! The NT-1 Is the BEST sounding mic (IMO) For the $$!!!! The NT-3 (if its the thin one) Ive heard and wasnt as impressed with it as the NT-1 (depends on what its being used for i guess) My next mic purchase is gonna be the NT-2 or the classic! Most impressed with their product!
(I've yet to hear the Project Studio (thats the brand) Mic.... Supposedly sounds like a Neumann for under $400!!!!!)

[Getgo]

Well SR, Right now I can't argue with you, The Rode is an incredible mic for my application. Anyone else using the NT-1??

[Ernest828]

I auditioned a RODE NT mic several years ago (c.1997) & did not like it. I don`t remember
which model it was but I do remember there being waaaay too much sibilance in the high
end. I ended up purchasing an AT 4050 and since then I`ve added the Neumann TLM 103
which is incredible. These mics (to my ears) do not overemphasize any frequencies beyond
what I`m comfortable with.

As with mic pre`s, all mics are subject to personal taste. However, I think we`ll all agree
there are mics and mic pre`s that have become standards or soon will be.

[cjogo]

We are using a stereo combination of a Rode NT 3 and AT 4050 or the tube NTK for our guitar and strings---great sound for the accoustics --all mics are in conjunction with the Manley/Langevin Mic pres

[tnolan]

Yeah, I have to agree....you've gotta listen to the 3d Mic Pre CDs...the 30 bucks or so they will set you back will turn you on to pres you never heard of and dispel some mystique about those you've heard you'll love.

My faves (and I guarantee yours will vary) were the Great River, Grace Designs, Earthworks and err...gee...Manley?

Any others that listened to the Mic or Mic Pre CDs that would care to share?

[Ernest828]

Tnolan,

I must agree on your pre amp choices!
The only ones I`d add are on the high end:
Avalon VT 737 SP and Martech
On the low end: ART ProChannel and Presonus M20.

EJB