Options for Direct guitar recording (HELP)

[ink]

I'm the owner of a Pod 2.0 and Digi001 system that I use for direct guitar recording. I'll be upgrading my A/D converters to a Lucid AD9624 or Rosetta and wanted to upgrade my guitar sound as well. Problem is, I simply do not understand what products I should look into for doing this... and on top of that, what my setup chain would look like.

How could I utilize my A/D upgrade with guitar recording (as I see it, using the Pod means using inferior converters)?

What do people use for direct recording of electric guitar (no amps, no mics)?
Channel strips, instrument pres, etc (I don't understand the difference).

Any input on these options:
A) Guitar --> Focusrite TrakMaster --> Lucid --> Digi/ProTools --> Amplitube
B) Guitar --> RME RNP --> RME RNC --> Lucid , etc
C) Guitar --> RME RNC --> Pod 2.0 --> Lucid, etc

Are preamps or channel strips (TrakMaster) ever converting the signal to digital BEFORE it gets to the Lucid?

Thanks for any help... and yes, I'll save you the trouble :classic:
;)

[reignstorm]

I have amplitube and it the guitar sim world its the best I've heard (much better than pod) The only thing that i've heard better from is Amp Farm, and I dont have a TDM systems to run that on. If you have digi 001 I would DEFINITELY invest in Amplitube. I use it everyday and the sounds are great....not quite as good as having a slew of amps(and a sound proof room to crank them in), but but definitely good.

Of the gear you mentioned I would definitely use the RNP into the Lucid into Digi 001....and use Amplitube. You can add a RNC in the chain if you want but the RNC is a very clean compressor(and a great one at that) and you may want a bit more "color" from your compressor. I have had very good results with the Waves Renaissance Compressor on d/i guitars.

For Direct In guitars or bass, you need to make sure that you have a pre with a good DI, instrument input. The RNP should be sufficient. I just got a great river MP-NV1 to use for this. I'm actually selling a dbx 576, which is a pre/eq/comp with a nice DI, if you are interested.

Good luck. - darren

[michaelhoddy]

Does the new POD have a digital out? If not, you're basically taking your guitar through 2 A/D stages, even if the second one (the Lucid) is a good one.

I'd be more likely to take an input from the POD, but also to get a good DI like the Avalon U5 or even the Countryman Type 85 and take a direct off the guitar through the Lucid into the computer. Then, use one of the better amp sim plugins or programs there. You also have the ability to output that DI signal to an amp to reamp, if you want. Reamping in this fashion is something I do all the time, POD or no POD, because I can stack guitar tracks and play with different sounds endlessly. Also, NOTHING digital sounds like a miked cabinet. The amp sims I've heard sound decent tonally, but always sound a bit two-dimensional or dead. Re-amping through a miked cabinet fixes this for me.

[ink]

Thanks to both of you for the input. I think I'd agree about the RNC, I don't want the compression to be TOO transparent. I've just started looking at some pre/eq/comp strips like the Focusrite Trak Master, but I think maybe a simple DI pre would be the way to go. I can always use Waves for the rest.

The POD Pro has digital outs, but not the 2.0 or XT (well, the XT will eventually be able to use USB for digital transfer).

It seems that I WOULD in fact benefit from the Lucid upgrade with and without the Pod. I think I'll look into a DI pre and compare by using direct from POD, Amplitube, and reamping through the Pod.

Thanks again for the explanation and product suggestions. :)

[Ernest828]

Hope I`m not too late...

In the last month I have done sessions with the V Amp and another with a POD. I ran both units through my Avalon 737 SP. The Avalon does not have AD convertors but I got great sounds. I laugh when I hear a guitarist complain about a DA convertor because electric guitar is not really an instrument that will be enhanced too greatly by an $8000 convertor like the Apogee AD8000 especially if the sound has some distortion in it.

Realistically your POD is giving you a pretty close sound of what you would get if you miked the guitar amp. The RNP would be a waste of $$$ in my opinion for what you are doing. Maybe because I (admit) am biased towards Avalon gear but I think you would be better going with a 737 so you get yourself a DI, a great mic pre, a tranparent compressor and an incredibly sweet EQ. Or for $500, get a U5 DI box.

I know you are paying 4x more with the 737 but you get 4x the sound and 4x the tools.

Ernest

[michaelhoddy]

Quality conversion is about more than frequency response and THD. I notice a SIGNIFICANT difference in electric guitar sounds recorded through better converters, in that they are always more natural-sounding, less harsh, more present with less compression needed, tighter in the bass, and that they don't need nearly as much tweaking at mixdown to get things to sound good.

Cheap digital does horrible things to sources (guitars and drums especially) that benefit from analog tape. Better quality AD really helps to even the score, regardless of the source material.

[ink]

Ernest, thanks for jumping in. The 737 seems like a great unit, but realistically, it's out of my price range. The U5 may be the place where I look to start. As far as the A/D converter, one of the things I'm looking to benefit from the Lucid is a better clock for my Digi001 system. I'll sync the Digi to the Lucid and basically improve the quality of my Digi inputs in the process.

It seems the answer to my question is one that I expected... I have a lot of options and basically just have to decide where to start. I appreciate everyone's input. It's helped to see how people chain their setups, and what gear people are using for DI guitar recording.

I do have ONE thing that's throwing me off... and that's what to look for when matching input/output impedance. For instance, The analog OUTPUT impedance of the Avalan U5 is 150 (Mic level, balanced) and 600 (line level, balanced) ohms via XLR. The analog INPUT inpedance of the Lucid AD9624 is 20k (balanced) and 10k (unbalanced) ohms via XLR inputs. The Lucid is accepting a line level signal, correct? Will the low impedance outputs of the U5 be OK to feed it? Or would I need to run the U5 though a preamp BEFORE hitting the Lucid... meaning yet another piece of gear? Maybe there's a simple explanation that I'm missing.

Thanks for anything & everything.

[Blane]

Has anyone tried comparing the Aardvark pro Q10 to the digi 001? I have the Q10...

[Blane]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I have the POD as well. And the Q10 has superb preamps as well as 2 inputs with e.f.r switches for direct inputs for your guitars.

[xstatic]

Try taking the pod's analog outputs straight to a di, then to a good A/d. I second michael's notion of the Avalon U5. Also, consider a BSS direct box if you can't afford the Avalon DI. The countrymans sound great, but they tend to fall apart very easily. The BSS will sound as good if not better, but it is constructed far better than the Countryman. I personally would not compress your signal after the pod. That can be done just as well during mixdown, but will offer you the ability to change your mind about settings. If you track with it you are stuck with it. Compressing before the pod however will actually change your tone though, so that is still an option. I use amplitude also, but I would not say it is better than the pod. They are very different. I do love amplitube, but I also find that many of the sounds are better from the pod. Each has its place.

[sherekhan]

Originally posted by michaelhoddy
You also have the ability to output that DI signal to an amp to reamp, if you want. Reamping in this fashion is something I do all the time, POD or no POD, because I can stack guitar tracks and play with different sounds endlessly. Also, NOTHING digital sounds like a miked cabinet. The amp sims I've heard sound decent tonally, but always sound a bit two-dimensional or dead. Re-amping through a miked cabinet fixes this for me.


Michael,

Do you have a favorite choice of amp and mics for reamping, assuming you are doing some amp & mic modeling somewhere in process (POD or NO POD)?

Thanks.

[nostatic]

I have a J-Station, PodXT, and Amplitube. By FAR Amplitube is my favorite, especially for the "stlightly broken up" tones. I track direct wihtout monitoring through the plug in, and apply it after the fact. I do have an idea of what tone I'm looking for and vary my attack accordingly.

I have two signal paths I use depending on my mood. One is Avalon 737, light compression, no eq. This goes into a Rosetta 96K unit. The other path is a Summit TD-100 direct box into a Summit TLA-50 compressor. I love the TLA-50. Simple and sounds great. Another option would be the new Summit 2BA-221 which is a combo mic preamp/instrument preamp. That and a TLA-50 would be killer and also allow you to do vocals. I also have an RNC and it is great for the money, but for guitar and bass either the Summit or Avalon sound better to me.

So short story is ditch the Pod, get the Summit stuff (about $1100 for the preamp/compressor pair) and Amplitube. Although that being said I'm going through Amplitube withdrawls as I've migrated to OSX using Logic and Amplitube isn't out in AU format yet...probably in a month or so.

[guitarjoe]

Hey how about a real amp with tubes. Run it through aload/speaker emualator - thd / groove tubes. Much easier not better than miked. but it is hard to tell the difference in the mix. Ask luke ace and eddy