Nika, why do computers crash so unpredictably ?

[d-dmusic]

Here's one for ya !
I can't figure it out. Sometimes I'd like to throw it out ! Other days I think I've figured it out because it works so perfectly- and then the next day-nothing but trouble. No it's not my golf clubs - it's my Mac G3/233/xlr8 dual 500 Mhz/320MB RAM/barracuda 9gig 7500rpm HD/adaptec2940UW/VST32 5.0r1/OS9.1/DS2416/adbdigital ax88

Seriously, why does my computer crash so often on certain days and then on the occasional day I'll have a perfect session without a crash ? I have TechTool Pro 3.0.3(the latest version) I installed my RAM using a grounding strap on a tile floor wearing shoes etc... Is it Cubase ? Do people who use Logic or DP or whatever have as many problems ?
How do studios that run ProTools fair ?:confused:

[Nika]

David,

Great question. I really don't know the intracies of computers well enough to know why they crash and why they don't. It often seems like extensions and preferences are at fault for most of the problems. An easy way to reconcile problems is to ditch a few preferences files in your system folder. Sure, you'll have to set things up again when you boot that application, but it's often my own first technical support solution on my own system.

As you may know, I have a fairly comprehensive Protools system at home, and I don't have nearly the problems that a lot of people complain about. A lot of it has to do with recognizing that turning a $2000 computer into a $10,000 or more recording system was not necessarily something that the folks at Apple or Microsoft had in mind. You're stretching the bounds enough of what a computer was meant to do that you have to install all of this additional stuff in there to make it happen. With all of this in mind, taking shortcuts to putting the system together is just ill advised.

It is crucial that the computer be put together meticulously following ALL of the detailed steps in the installation guide. The right versions of firmware on the SCSI cards and other peripherals is necessary. The proper version of OS that is compatable with all of the above is necessary. In some applications even such minor details as the system font is particular to the software being used.

I don't know that this helps you with your problem, but if your problems persist you might try building it up from scratch again. You may have something corrupted in there that you aren't aware of and would never suspect.

Part of the reason that I, personally, don't have any problems is that I had Sweetwater's computer installation department completely configure it for me. They do hundreds of systems identical to mine and are familiar with all of the caveats of a detailed installation.

If you have any other questions, let me know. I hope this helps!

Nika.

[recordingpro]

I whole-heartedly agree with Nika. Even though I've been doing studio work for quite a while and also have a great computer background, it is still SOOOOOOO wonderful to have a professional setup of your DAW. There are so many little issues that can be overlooked...these pro's have seen just about every scenario you can imagine. Plus, it makes it a lot easier to provide tech support if these guys don't have to try to figure out what you messed up when you installed everything.

Aside from that, it is CRITICAL for the professional (or even a serious hobbiest) user to have a computer that is DEDICATED to the purpose of recording. You wouldn't do email with your ADAT or make marketing materials with your Mackie mixer, and you really should try to avoid it with your DAW.

Also, avoid unneccasary upgrades....don't upgrade to the next OS if you really don't need to. My Pro tools system is rock solid running on System 8.6 .... I'm not going to mess with it for at least another couple months when I'm ready to start some surround projects.

[d-dmusic]

Thanks for both of your responses.
And yes, it is possible that I may have overlooked something even though I was as careful as I possibly could have been.
I have completely re-formatted both of my hard drives, purchased the latest OS's/updates/drivers/etc...I've even created a new set of extensions with only those extensions necessary for recording turned on but even that turned out to be just as flaky.
The interesting thing is that other applications, including my wife's Adobe Illustrator/Photoshop(on her B&W G3) are ROCK SOLID. They just don't freeze.
No hangs. Nothing. It makes me wonder about Cubase.
If you check out the Cubase forum @ cubase.net, it also leads me to believe that,perhaps, new versions of Cubase are released before they are FULLY, 100% tested. Soooo many problems !I don't know I'm just speculating. I remember using Notator on my Atari, locking up to tape using the C-Lab dongle, and having quite the solid system. And simple. I know it's "Apples" vs. oranges but:D

[Nika]

Originally posted by d-dmusic
Thanks for both of your responses.
And yes, it is possible that I may have overlooked something even though I was as careful as I possibly could have been.
I have completely re-formatted both of my hard drives, purchased the latest OS's/updates/drivers/etc...I've even created a new set of extensions with only those extensions necessary for recording turned on but even that turned out to be just as flaky.
The interesting thing is that other applications, including my wife's Adobe Illustrator/Photoshop(on her B&W G3) are ROCK SOLID. They just don't freeze.
No hangs. Nothing. It makes me wonder about Cubase.


David,

Just another thought on this one........none of those other programs are so dependant upon third party hardware and additional software, additional harddrives, additional interfaces, keyboards, and all kinds of peripherals. They're PRETTY much dedicated programs that are self contained. It does not surprise me that they run more efficiently.


Those are just passing thoughts.

Thanx again!
Nika.

[theguitarguru]

Do you have Tech Tool Pro or Norton Utlities? Sometimes running those utilities help. Also bad memory will cause freezes. If you have memory interleaved with a processor upgrade card, or mixed unbuffered with buffered memory it will throw off the timing. Since audio programs are more sensitive you might have a memory issue. Try zappping the pram or resetting the cuda chip right on the motherboard. I'll bet that's the problem.

Rick

[TimOBrien]

I use to manage an catalog company art department. Whenever one of the designers would come to me crying about their computer crashing I'd say "It was a random cosmic ray!"

Actually, computers are so fast and sensitive now that little things like cosmic rays and minute power fluctuations (even quantum fluctuations) have been blamed for this.

Of course, you also have slightly corrupted files (one bad bit can cause funky problems and be nearly impossible to trace), flakey hard drives, RAM that only works 99.99999999999999% of the time, and (of course) complex software algorithms that works on any day EXCEPT deadline day.

I also had a manager who went totally ballistic on me one day when our AS400 mainframe went down and I kidded that the Laws of the Universe prohibit ANY device from being 100% perfect ---- she had no sense of humor (and apparently no good science teachers either because it's true!)

[d-dmusic]

Ya Tim !
I believe it. I have some clients who blame their poor performances on "the planets not being aligned properly" as well, but I really do believe in cosmic rays/sun spots and especially minute power fluctuations and even "unclean" power. I should try and get the Pope to bless my APC, Mac and all of my peripherals in a holy war against crashes. It seems as though Science will always have its foibles. Maybe I need some divine intervention.
Thanks :D

[Big Dap]

If I could pick three words to tell you about crashes. Backup Backup Backup would be it. Sometimes I can push the envelope. Sometimes I want to put it in an envelope. But the trick is to keep your hardrive, system files and "convenience" software items clean and orderly. My screensaver kills everything. I disabled it. Also, especially if you haven't made your first platinum album yet and you use your computers for other things other than recording your soul (see Nika's Protool system), you have to check things like software that runs in the background and even temp files. For the most part, when you assembled your computer, if you burn tested it (like we all should)and unless you move it around alot (which we all shouldn't), then the problem is most likely software related than hardware (ie connection, bad memory). Of course, static and unclean power do play a role. As well as proper shutdown and harddisk maintenence. I've built several hundred computers in my day. Even gone as far as dropping a CPU on the floor and straightening the pins with a needle nose. They all worked fine.:)

[d-dmusic]

Big Dap :
People use the words "crash" and "freeze" as if they mean the same thing. Perhaps I, for one, should stop doing that once and for all.
I'm really asking about "freezes" not crashes(as in a hard disk crash)
Cubase has proven to be a very "freeze" willing application. After trying nearly everything, including reformatting,reinstalling, creating new extension sets, eliminating suspect plug-ins/apps(like Unity Player,Pluggo), the only remaining application which might be causing these all to frequent freezes is OMS & Cubase! Gibson & Opcode (or whoever) are dukin' that out like children and the many companies who supported OMS are now left hangin' with no plans for any updates. Real pro's with lots of ability to find a diplomatic solution. Oh yeah ! MmmmHmm !
I've just tried one other thing on the advice of another person from the Cubase forum - and that is, installing my DSPF sound card into PCI slot #1 instead of #2 (where it was) Maybe, that will make some difference. I hope.
Thanks for the input !
Keep 'em comin'

[Nika]

Big Dap,

Nice to hear from you again, stranger!! Thank you for chiming in! I just came back from the city today. It's getting hot there! I thought about giving you a jingle but I had very little time in town itself. Most of my time was on Long Island.


Talk to you soon!
Nika.

[everett_chris]

My regular job is as a network administrator, running about 400 systems. Here is my top list of problems that I see

Bad power. Get a good APC ups, either there back-ups pro or smart-ups line.

Bad memory. Get the good stuff, it hardly costs more now, I prefer crucial.com. If your m-board will take ECC or buffered, buy it.

Cheap motherboards. (PC's) A lot of retail systems have really cheap motherboards. If you are upgrading consider a server type box that can handle multiple processor's. Even if you don't install the second processor, the quality of the board is much better.

Unneeded software. Keep the junk off of the system you use for production. No games, no word processor, no pretty screen savers, nothing that is not essential.

Keep up on patches for your hardware and software.

If you have static problems, get an anti-static floor mat.

Reboot the system at least daily, even if your not having problems.

I've followed all of these rules for my audio production machine and it has never crashed. Not even once, in a year of operation.

[Nixon]

D-music,

All of the above suggestions were valid and should be taken to heart. It is always good to back up as well as use tech tool and other utilities to keep your drives up and running. I also had crashing problems with a g3/266 as well as a G4/350 while using the 2480 SCSI card. It keep crashing and I could not record any audio on the drives without a bus error. I tried download new drivers and changing preferences, but nothing worked. Finally the card just "fried" itself and I replaced it with a ATTO dual SCSI and everything ran smoothly. I might be worth it to install a second internal IDE drive (7200) on the G4 and record your audio directly to it and not use that SCSI card.

Let me know how it goes.

Clint Crump
Sweetwater Sound

[d-dmusic]

Hello Nixon :
I've heard a few stories about the Adaptec SCSI cards, one from Roger Nichols about how much happier he is after switching to the ATTO card.
I find it really hard to justify paying for another card though(and the ATTO cards are not cheap!)What am I going to do with that Adaptec SCSI card ? No one would buy it, I think.
But, thanks for your input.
BTW, my latest solution for improving stability is installing OS9.1 fresh every morning before I start work. I'm not going to jinx it by saying that it works, so far.

[7UP]

d dmusic,
Hi! 7up here. That seems SO drastic to re-install the OS every morning that it makes me think that there are real hardware problems. I read through the thread but didn't catch what digital audio hardware you are using. I did see that you are using Cubase for software. The xlr8 card has given friends of mine trouble enough for them to trash it and get a g4. I'm sure you have considered the xlr8 as the culprit? This stuff is hard enough to get to work using original manufacturers' equipt. Using 3rd party system hardware is asking for conflicts, I think. I know that doesn't help you but I was just wondering if you've considered that scenario? What dig audio card(s) are you using? (sorry if I missed that in the thread.)

7up
Never Will

[d-dmusic]

Hi 7up :
Yup ! it could be the xlr8 card. I'm in the process of trying to solve some temperature issues, with xlr8 tech support, concerning the 2 processors. I hope this will solve the freezes, but I have some doubts.
Regarding the sound card-it's a Yamaha DSP Factory card installed in PCI slot #1.
You know it could be the Adaptec 2940UW card as well. I don't know if I said this before, but I've heard ALOT about these cards, negative stuff, and the buysellzone website is FULL of people getting rid of these cards. CHEAP ! I'd spring for the ATTO card but it seems like such an unnecessary expense.
So, it could be a combo that has infected my computer with the freezey heebie geebies.
I have to take one thing at a time. Be patient. Keep my cool. Count to 10. Breathe deeply. Don't forget to exhale.
But what about my clients ?

[Kenny Bergle]

Great Attitude!!! With that kind of mindset you'll go far! I'm sure your clients will consider that! Hang in there, sounds like you are on the right track. (fyi, the ATTO IS more stable, imho..., with digital audio)...

[tenebrae]

One thing that nobody seemed to address was heat.

It seems you've put a lot of hardware in that box of yours, and I think it's safe to say that you're making the computer work much harder (and consequentially, hotter) than it was really designed for.

I'm not suggesting this is definitely the answer, but it's something to consider.

I'm not a Mac user, but the heat issue is a factor on all the Intel/pc, Sun Micro, and SGI systems I've worked on.

Hope this helps.
-Tenebrae

[d-dmusic]

Hi tenebrae :
Yes, heat is definitely a factor. In fact, the first set of processors I received from xlr8 were running very hot. 56º and sometimes as much as 80ºC on the second processor. I drilled holes in the metal chasis directly above the processors in order to let the hot air escape more freely and I am thinking about constructing a vent/fan to help with ventilating the heat build up in the rack. The only problem is the additional noise which I don't need.
The xlr8's each have a fan, the Mac has it's fan, my K2000 has a fan-I've almost got a 5.1 surround thing goin' here. But the holes help alot and the new xlr8 processors are running much cooler. Approx. 44ºC for both. The old G3 Desktop cases were not the best design for heat dissapation.

[djstatik]

Originally posted by d-dmusic
Hello Nixon :
I've heard a few stories about the Adaptec SCSI cards, one from Roger Nichols about how much happier he is after switching to the ATTO card.
I find it really hard to justify paying for another card though(and the ATTO cards are not cheap!)What am I going to do with that Adaptec SCSI card ? No one would buy it, I think.
But, thanks for your input.
BTW, my latest solution for improving stability is installing OS9.1 fresh every morning before I start work. I'm not going to jinx it by saying that it works, so far.

F.Y.I. I have an adaptec 160 ultra-SCSI and it works fantastic. I've had zero problems in the year that I have owned it. I paired it up with a Quantum ultra-160 10,000rpm drive and it has performed amazingly. 48+ channels without disk performance even breathing heavy.