Mic-Pre Confusion

[thesag]

I have been demoing with a VS-880 and a ART Tube Pac for the past couple of years. Even though I can produce decent sounding demos, I have no illusions about my equipment being a high quality setup (like I said....just using it for demos) . My band just recorded a cd on an SSL console using top quality vintage mics and mic pres, so I do understand the difference, however, I do plan seriously expanding my studio in the next year or so and will probably go with a mixer / 24trk MDM setup and most importantly, a good vocal chain.

My question is this: If I spend thousands on a top quality mic and mic-pre, isn't the signal still effected by the built-in pre-amps in the board? Do you just crank up the gain on the outboard preamp and turn down the levels on the board so that you're mainly hearing the outboard preamp, or is there another route? What about running directly from the outboard mic-pre into the MDM? That seems like the most pristine route?

My goal is to record the drums for the next cd in a commercial studio but to be able to record guitars and vocals at my lesiure at home, but not have a dropoff in quality.

I'm definitely a novice in the home recording world but I want to learn.....so school me guys!

Thanks in advance!
Steve
http://www.soulvillemusic.com

[xstatic]

When tracking, definately take the pre straight to the MDM, no reason I can think of to send it anywhere else first. When returning the signal to the console from a pre amp, try bringing it back into the insert return. This will bypass the gain pot all together. Also, try to punch out the channel EQ if possible. This will give you the least amount of processing from all the onboard stuff. You could even try bringing that channel back through and FX return or something similar.

[thesag]

Thanks xstatic.

I assumed that it was possible to run directly into a recorder and monitor it back through the board, but since I am a novice with that type of setup I wasn't sure.

In regards to mic-pres/compressors, do you have an opinion on the all-in-one units vs. separate units (the good ones....not the cheapies). I know that mic-pre discussions have been done to death, and are fairly subjective depending on the user, but I'm wondering what someone with real world experience thinks. I've also heard that it's not great to use a tube mic with a tube mic-pre because it's too much tube. Any experience with this?

Thanks again,
Steve
http://www.soulvillemusic.com

[xstatic]

Mics and pres are VERY subjective. There are so many factors to consider. I think that electronically, and for flexibility issues, that seperate units would be better than all in ones, but, there are many all in ones that sound great. I do agree with the tube to tube thought, but it does not always hold true., Sometimes you might really want that. Plus many good tube pres give you some sort of tube drive control so you could stay very light with it.

As far as what I like, I love the new vintech x81 pre amp. It is all based around the Neve 1073 pres (as many many mic pres are). It is a one rack space unit. Preamp and EQ only. Its pretty and it sounds amazing. Lately I have really been in love with the Empirical labs gear. I love the distressor and the Fatso. They are really marketed for live audio, but they sound amazing. I also really like ATI preamps, John Hardy, etc.... There is lots of great stuff out there. Even cheap ones have their place:) But if I had the money, I would probably go out and buy some Vintech stuff, and probably a Millenia origin, and a couple nice Urei's. But I don't have it so...........good luck:)

[Ernest828]

This is all subjective so try to rent some gear you`re interested in and record short demos of actual music you`ll be recording. When I was auditioning my first mic, I went to Mannys Music in NYC and had them set up 5 mics. I also brought a DAT tape and recorded myself singing with every mic. I came home and listened to the material for 3 days and then decided what was best for me. If you have a limited bidget you don`t have the liberty to waste money on good gear. You want to get the best gear FOR YOU. (A Shure 57 may be the best mic)

In my case, back in `96 my budget for a mic was $700. I ended up with am AT 4050 which I use all the time even though I have a Neuman which I also use. It was a great decision but I did some HomeWork. If you have no limit on budget then go out and grab different mics and pres just for flavor. You can`t go wrong with the proven units:

Manley, Avalon, Neve, Martech Pres
Neuman, Audio Technica mics

Ernest

[thesag]

Thanks Ernest,

I'm using Rode mics right now and I think they sound pretty good, but then again, without comparing against other mics, it's hard to know the difference. The thing that drives me crazy about buying gear is that it's nearly impossible to really try something out before you buy it. It's funny, I ride motorcycles and it's basically the same thing.....if you're buying one new you usually don't get a test ride, you just buy it and hope for the best. I feel like it's the same way with pro audio gear.

I'm in the Dallas / Fort Worth area and all we have around here are Guitar Centers, which in my opinion, are usually a joke. I say their a joke not because they don't carry the gear, but because nobody seems to know what their doing. Mars was even worse but they're going out of business (probably because of their customer service!....lol).

It's funny, my band just released our first album (oops, I still call it that), and the studio we were recording in, which was essentially a very nicely equipped project studio with a great engineer/owner, originally had a Neotek console that we tracked and mixed probably the first three quarters of the cd on (we did it kind of piecemeal). Then the guy went out and got an older SSL from Nashville that has had all kind of famous people record on it, and we used that board to track and mix the remaining songs on. The funny thing was, three of us from the band were discussing some things about the cd one day, and somehow or another we all started talking about the differences in sound between the two consoles and we all agreed that we like the sound of the Neotek console much better. It was probably the different eq's, but the sound of much cheaper console was more flattering to our music than the incredibly expensive and highly regarded console. I'm not saying that the $20K board is better than the $100K board, just different, and with our style of music it worked better. But then again, it might be a completely different situation with a different style of music. What's funny about that situation is that I'm probably like most people, in that I'm easily wooed by the expensive gear I always hear aobut, but it doen't neccesarily mean that it's the end all be all.

Anyway, I'm probably rambling here, but bottom line, I think the only thing that any of us can do is buy and use the equipment that is pleasing to our ears (and that we can afford) and the kind of music we typically record. For now, I'll just have to rely on reviews and more experienced opinions as to what I should actually buy.

So keep it coming guys!!!

Steve
http://www.soulvillemusic.com

[Michael]

I've been through very nice microphones including a '59 Neumann tube mic with M5 or M7 capsule (can't remember which), and I've found a real beauty, a Tracy Korby FET. It sells for around $1200 or $1300, and it is, I understand, frequently compared to Neumanns costing 4 times as much.
I would agree.

Tracy is a Neumann Tech who hand-makes these mics (tube versions also). They aren't advertised anywhere I know of. You can see them at vintageloop.com. Bob, the broker who runs Vintage Loop, turned me on to this microphone. It is flat, warm, very expensive-sounding. There is usually a waiting list for them. At the website, scroll down to "Korby Audio microphones."

[Audio Servant]

Depending on your budget I would look at a vintage NEVE preamp if you can afford it. You will never lose money on that type of investment. Plus it is a sound that has been heard on tens of thousands of records so it will automatically sound "right."

If you are on a budget, look at the Presonus preamps (I have the MP20 and like it a lot) and also the FMR Audio stuff. Both are a great deal and actually hold their own compared to my Neve 33114 modules.

[michaelhoddy]

That Vintech X81 that xstatic mentions is supposed to be pretty smokin'. I haven't heard this particular combination yet, but they took a Neve 1081 strip reproduction and replaced the supposed weak point in the circuit (the Class AB mic amp) with a 1073 Class A mic amp. I want a pair!

I love the original Neve 1081, so if it's even close to that, it should be amazing.


Something you should do early on is to clarify the mission and purpose of your setup. If you are tracking your band in a relatively high-end facility and are comfortable doing that, it makes little sense to load up on all sorts of expensive gear for your personal rig, as it will take a LOT of money and acquisitions to equal the sound you're already getting in the pro studio. If you're just demo'ing stuff on your VS880, aim just high enough that the gear doesn't compromise what you're trying to accomplish musically, and let that be enough. If you are out to do some of the album tracking process at home, there are a few more issues at hand.

1. Your home acoustics will not equal those of a professionally-designed studio tracking room. Vocals will not be affected too much by this, but guitars (especially miked acoustics) will be.

2. If the studio you tracked in used analog tape and a great analog signal path, there's no way that the guitars will sound quite the same on digital tracked at home. Drums and electric guitars are the biggest benificiaries of analog tape coloration and compression.

3. If you want your vocals to sound like they were recorded through an expensive vintage mic and top-quality preamp, chances are good that you'll need to get yourself an expensive vintage mic and top-quality preamp.

4. The A/D converters in the VS880 will become a liability if the tracks need to compare well with tracks recorded to analog tape, or through higher-quality digital recorders.

What would I suggest as a setup? Here goes:

-1x AKG C414TLII or Neumann U87 or Neumann M147 or Audio-Technica 4060 or Audio-Technica 4050 for vocals. Or whatever makes you sound the best. The Audio-Technica 4047, Soundelux U195, and Soundelux U99 are also interesting possibilities.

-1x Great River MP2-NV 2-channel preamp. This will give you a boatload of sonic options for vocals and guitars. You could also try the aforementioned Vintech x73 and Vintech x81 if you need EQ, but these are the same price as the 2-channel NV for only a single channel.

-1x Apogee Rosetta 2-channel AD converter. The 48k version would probably suffice for now, but this will really open up your sound and give it that last bit of polish. Recording an expensive mic through an expensive preamp to a cheap AD kind of degrades the potential of the mic and preamp.

-The MDM or computer-based hard disk recorder of your choice. The Alesis HD24 comes to mind, although the Digi 002 would probably serve you very well. Alternately, you could keep your VS880, as long as you can record to the digital input through the Rosetta.

Just some ideas.

I'm actually not too surprised that you were less than impressed with the SSL, which I'm guessing was probably a 4000-series. SSL's are much more highly regarded for mixing than they are for tracking, and the mic amps and signal path in especially the earlier ones were a little less impressive than one might expect, which isn't to say bad necessarily, but not what one would think.