Mastering: Red Book Audio vs. Burn Speed

[mark4man]

About half way through production of a compilation CD, I am wondering...what is the advantage to using a Red Book app, such as CD Architect, for mastering my .wav files prior to replication? (meaning on a comparative basis...such as; CD Architect vs. Nero or Roxio.) I am using Sonic Foundry's SoundForge as a .wav editor (& Nero to burn) at present; & aside from PQ coding, are there any special audio advantages found in a Red Book app that would make the music sound better?

Also: I have heard mastering engineers mention the advantage of slow burn speeds for mastering. Right now I am using a TDK, the slowest speed of which is 4x. Can specialty burners, that use speeds as low as 2x or 1x, be had? How important is slow burning? Is it possible for software to dictate the speed?

Thanks in advance.

mark4man

[TeeCee]

I can't comment on the advantages of using CD Architect to burn pre-masters. I use it to create seemless DJ mix CDs and it works flawlessly for that.

The burn speed myth is just that. The best burn speed depends on the capabilities of your burner and the media you are burning to. I have an older Plextor 8/20 and I can hear audible issues if I burn audio at less than 8x. As I get slower, the burn gets worse. You can burn a track to CD, extract it, flip the phase, and add it to the original to see just how accurate your burns and extractions are. I've gotten a zero sum product while burning at 24x on my newer 40/12/40a Plextor. I just had to align the start times a little.

[mark4man]

Thanks, man!

I think TC may be the acronym for "too cool"...where on earth did you come up with the burn>extract>phase flip & add theorm? That's perfect!

I've always wondered about the "myth"? There's another school on that which insists that one must go out & purchase a a Marantz Pro or a Tascam CC-222, at about $800; & burn at 1x using digital I/O.

Thanks again,

mark4man

BTW - Please check out my site:

http://www.moonjams.com

Wouldn't mind having it added to: Links > Pro Audio > AM Audio & Info, at your Digital Freaks site.

[xstatic]

Copied from different thread.......

The Red Book app will always be a higher quality burn. There is nothing wrong with roxio, Nero etc... In fact I use them very often, but CD architecht is definately the way to go. For one, you can see the wave forms, do you can skip very quickly between songs, even to the middle of tracks, so you can really hear how the volumes between the songs interact with each other. Also, you can overlap tracks and really get picky about where to place the track marker. You can place audio bits actually in between tracks (i.e. have talking or intro or something in between tracks 4 and 5 so that the only way to hear it is to play cd staright through form the previous song). The red book apps create very quick and easy to follow PQ sheets for press plants. Also, progs like wavelab and CD Architecht also will tell you if there are errors in a CD's setup. CD architect will now even tell you if there is possible digital clipping in a track. Also, a red book app will allow you to add subtracks and indexes to a project. As for burning slower, yes, technically a slower burn should put out a higher quality disc. One thing that Apps still don't show you that is very important to a CD's quality is the error rate of a disc. Burning at higher speeds has been shown to yield a far higher error rate in discs. Press plants test their material for error rates. If the rate is too high, it goes in the garbage. They also test your incoming master for errors, the more errors it has, the more errors it allows them to have upon output. Your glass master will have AT LEAST as many errors as your source master, the resulting press run will also have at least as many and then some. Digital is not digital. If thats is true, is 24 bit 24 bit? If so, brands like Apogee and Prism will be very sad) The press houses however will accept any of your masters that they can drop down to a glas master. They will never complain unless there is something wrong that will keep them from doing their job. But, that doesn't mean that you can't send them a better CDR for a master. Also, even the brand of a CD can make a difference. I always use Pro CD's and a red Book CD App for my press masters, but I comonly use Nero and consumer grade cdr's for listening copies.

[TeeCee]

mark4man:
I've bookmarked you in my personal Groups & Labels folder. If I ever update my web site, you be in that list. The phase trick is from my day job: I'm an Electrical Engineer.

xstatic :
You should read what I've posted. It's my actual experience. Just as the best CD-R media for a drive varies, so can the best burn speed.

[xstatic]

Isn't it true though that if the error were in both the left and right tracks of an extraction or burn, that when run out of phase, wouldn't they too be cancelled out?

[TeeCee]

xstatic:
No. The phase inverts left and right tracks independantly of each oth. I'm not swapping channels. It's like reversing the + and - on a single speaker, not swapping speaker leads. And then I mix it with the original, unextracted file on my computer that only has issues that I created while making the music.

[xstatic]

My point is that if the miniscule error were to be the same in both the left and right tracks, then reversing the phase of just one would in fact cancel it out, leaving it undetected, but not actually nonexistent. So, in reality there may be tons of errors, just that the others were universal and not track dependent. But errors none the less. Even a perfect master has errors found by press plants, they just have better equipment to identify them.

[TeeCee]

xstatic:
You are missing the point. I am not mixing left and right. Ever. Imagine taking the extracted Right Channel only, inverting the phase of this single channel, mixing it with the original Right Channel only. The result being silence. Whatever errors there are on the CD are recoverable by my consumer grade Plextor. Imagine how clean the signal is when extracting the music with the better equipment at the pressing plant.

And the way this started, it was about how bad my 2x burns were on my 8x burner. Errors so bad that the CD players in the two best reference systems I had access to played with audible issues. Imagine how many errors detected by the better equipment at the pressing plant.

[xstatic]

I see what you are saying now, I missed the part about mixing the inverted phased signal with the original unburned track. And yes, if your burner will not allow you to burn at a slower speed, then logic dictates that you must burn at whatever speed sounds the best. The second problem however, is that the majority of the errors I am speaking of are not actually even audible errors though. AS it was explained to me by many glass mastering professionals, errors tend to increase when making the physical glass master. Something about the process that they actually make the glass master seems to be partially affected (not necessarily in all cases though) by the burn speed of the master. ALL pressed CD's have errors. They have their own scale as to how many errors per disc are acceptable before a disc needs to be trashed. As far as I know, there are no audio programs available to end users to me to be able to track these errors. I do not claim to be an expert, only someone who several years ago made many many phone calls to different press plants getting quotes, info, tips etc... in order to provide my clients with the best master possible. ALL of my burners have no problems burning discs whether they are at 24 speed or 1 speed. But, my bad on my misinterpretation of your test, and I agree that your method would definately turn up some sort of audible errors should they exist.:)

[AcousticPro]

I've visited several plants and do a bit of mastering work myself. The truth is that both can be true. I doubt however that the burn speed itself is causing your audio to change. Most likely there is another variable in the "burn" application and the way it interfaces with your hardware. One great way to enforce the error without affecting audio truth is to take your cd vs a pressed and properly mastered commercial cd and drive down a bumpy dirt road in a car with a cd player. This sounds archaic, but we use to do this quite often some years ago before we figured out better ways to check our results. You might be amazed at how frequently your disc skips compared to a commercially pressed disc. There is indeed a correlation between software and hardware integration and what results you'll get at different speeds, but in theory if the burn is slower then the pits will be closer to perfect squares, if the burn is too fast they aren't. However, on the flip side if the burn is too slow with some of the stronger lasers that are out there, then you could do more damage than good. This is why true "Red Book" applications were invented. They support certain mechanisms and make sure that they take the mechanism into account when trying to burn for the standard and making a disc ready for pressing plants. I have a copy of the Red Book in my studio. If anyone wants to know what it actually says and means then let me know off-line from the forums and I'll get you some info.

[mark4man]

Thanks again for all the responses. Just out of curiosity, take a look at this burner:

http://www.yamahamultimedia.com/yec/products/cdrw/crwf1.asp

Once at the link, select the "Advanced Audio Master" icon; & check out the technology demonstration. I'm trying to figure out if this is a viable product for my puposes (& I also have an inquiry in to my replication house as to the same.) Tell me what you think...anybody.

Thanks in advance,

mark4man

BTW - Maybe a pre-master burned on this machine would pass the dirt road test?

[StevieT]

this is amaizing and great to know that people all over the world are having the same problem's as me .

i just recently mastered an album on wave lab and found it fantastic to be able to put track markers were you want as i think the timing between songs is vital for the flow of an album, finished it sent it to get pressed and then got the dredded call that they couldn't get the audio from the disc , i did nothing different just burnt the disk again on to a Verbatim cd-r and there was no more probs !

[TeeCee]

The first one might have gotten hot. That'll destroy them.

[lvjazzman]

http://www.digido.com/shuttle.html

Check out this site for GREAT (Borderline on AWESOME) information on the mastering process. They walk you through from session to end product giving a messload of good information and tips on what to do and not do when it comes to mastering your own CD or sending out files and sessions to be professionaly mastered. They have FAQs and a "Diginary" of terms... More than my poor little fingers can type in a reasonable time span!