Best Near field monitors. Anyone?

[djstatik]

I started out using JBL monitors, the "budda" looking ones with the woofer hump (4604?). These monitors sounded great. All of my music rocked on these monitors. Unfortunately, the mixes sounded like absolute crap everywhere else. Too much bass, too much treble, and little midrange.

I then went with the flow and bought Yamaha NS-10s. Every studio in the world can't be wrong, right? I have to admit, my mixes have gotten better, if only because if you can make them sound good on these terrible speakers it will sound good everywhere. The big problem I have with these is mainly ear fatigue due to the horrible sound and no bass. I write dance music. I NEED BASS!

I'd like to see some real world responses of what people are using that is working well for them. I'm particularly interested in the Mackie HR824 series if anyone owns these.

Thanks,
Scott:confused:

[recordingpro]

There are a lot of great monitors out there, and I've been lucky enough to have the opportunity to use a LOT of them. Before we get into a big discussion about monitors though, we might want to assess your monitoring environment. Even the best monitors in the world may have problems "translating" if the room itself is altering the sound of the mix. I know we are talking about nearfield monitors, which definately reduce this problem by putting you closer to the speaker, but you still can't completely rule out the room. What type of environment are you doing your mixing in? Do you have any type of sound treatment? How loud (or quiet) are you mixing?

The Mackies are great speakers, with a ton of low end, and a nice smooth tweeter, and for the type of music you are doing might very well be a good set for you, but I'd hate to see you lay down your hard earned cash on some new speakers, only to find that you continue to have similar problems. Give us some feedback on your mixing environment, and perhaps we can also talk about the pros and cons of some of the other speakers out there also.

[Alexander]

I agree with Matt that acoustics come into play here. More so than many might expect. I have mixed on the same JBL's, NS10's and many others and I own the HR824's -which are amazing by the way- but no matter how good or accurate monitors are, if the room you are recording or mixing in is working against you because of build up or or cancellation of specific frequencies then your mixes will never translate well outside of the studio. It's true that nearfields can reduce the effects of bad acoustics in a room by getting the sound to your ears before the room's reflections do, but they can't eliminate the modes and nodes that I was referring to.

The ideal is to record and mix in "neutral" acoustically treated rooms which impose no coloration on the sound going into the mic or on the sound traveling from the speakers to your ears. If your room is adding coloration to the sound, you won't accurately hear what the mics are picking up thus making mic placement a game of hit or miss. To get around this most people put the mics closer and closer to the instruments. This ensures that less and less of the room is heard but now there is virtually no harmonic or overtone development being picked up by the mic which makes you wonder why you spent so much time and money working on getting the perfect tone from your instrument which now as a result sounds like a shallow/hollow version of itself. Then we generally try to spice the sound back up with signal processing and the problem snowballs. I would suggest that instead of trying to find a speaker that just happens to work in your room better than another, that you look into treating the acoustics in your room even if marginally to begin with. This will do more for getting your mixes to translate out side of the studio than probably any other investment right now.

So,.. acoustics aside,.. my gut reaction is the NS10's (which aren't available anymore)won't give you the full, tight rich bass output you are looking for. I really do like my HR824's and they've got great low end which is very accurate. They are absolutely worth the money. Just make sure your room lets you enjoy whatever you decide to go with. At least that's my opinion.

[recordingpro]

Good point about the mic'ing. It's a whole other subject, but one worth bring up. nothing worse than a beautiful acoustic guitar that is mic'd so close that you only hear the strings...back up a few inches and let the wood breathe and hear how the strings, the wood, and the room all interact to make a nicer, fuller tone.

back to the original subject, I agree that the ns10's just aren't going to have enough ummph to give an accurate low end ... which is really needed when doing dance and electronic music (and other music as well...)

[Alexander]

Another thought... Very few near-fields will offer much by way of great bass response because that's not their job. Near fields are designed to represent the average home stereo system/boom box etc. Mid-fields on the other hand will offer more bass response similar to larger home stereo systems or even some car systems nowdays. I consider the Mackie HR824's as more of a mid-field monitor because they offer almost enough flat bass response to persuade me that I don't need a subwoofer, but...

My next point is that a subwoofer really is the only way to get the low end you are looking for. If you want to try something fun, connect a Sunfire True Sub Pro to a pair of HR824's or something comparable, pop in a disk, and sit down. If not it'll knock you down.
As much as a sub can balance out a nice pair of monitors, it's just as easy to get into trouble again though if the room can't accommodate the lower frequencies.

[djstatik]

Thanks for the replies guys. Every one of them were helpful.
For the room description; It is a 12' x 13' basement room dedicated to recording. There is 2.5 inch acoustic foam on 3 walls.
The fourth wall has hinged doors for access to the HVAC, which is a little noisy, but is not on much. The carpet is a nice berber. If anything adds to the room, I would say it is the lack of a door. The sound bleeds out and is sometimes reflected back in. This is if you are sitting way back about six feet from the nearfields so not really a problem.

Let me also mention that I record mostly electronic instruments that are patched directly into a mixer. The only miking is for "vocals". (I use the term loosely :D )

As for Alexander's response I'm definitely going to purchase midfields someday, but have to wait on funds for that. Until then, my trusty home Cerwin Vegas will have to suffice.

I have received encouragement about the Mackies, which I needed, since it is not a trivial amount of money.

Thanks again for all the help.
Scott

[Alexander]

It sounds like you've put a lot of thought into your set up.
Something you may want to try... chances are you have a local rental house where you could rent an RTA (real time analyzer) for a day and measure your room. It looks like a graphic eq but with LED's instead of sliders. An RTA allows you to see where the bumps and dips in your room are in the mix position. If the RTA indicates a build up of bass then chances are your mixes probably don't have enough low end when you listen to them elsewhere, and the opposite it true too and similarly through the entire spectrum.

Regarding speakers...what you'll find is that speakers designed for high end home stereo systems produce a very pleasing sound.. This is great for playback but dangerous for producing mixes though because if your speakers are flattering the sound, it is like trying to adjust and correct the color on your television set while wearing rose colored sunglasses. Studio monitors are considered *reference* speakers rather than *playback* speakers because they show everything good or bad in the sound. Then you put that mix on a system that smoothes out the problems and flatters the sound and it should turn out fine.

A few months ago I actually pulled several of the top competing powered monitors together (some near-field, some mid-field) for a listening shoot out. I had several of my colleagues join in to add their opinions. The results were very interesting across a very wide selection of music and styles. I'm more than happy to let you know the results if you wish.

[cmidkiff]

I use Tannoys and they work great for me. But I never soley trust one source for a final mix. I always reference other sources.

[Alexander]

I agree...It's always great to check your mix on as many sources as you can.

[djstatik]

Hey Alexander,

I am interested in your shootout results. And yes, I too have learned to listen on many systems, mainly the car, the boombox, and the computer speakers.

Thanks,
Scott

[Nika]

Originally posted by cmidkiff
I use Tannoys and they work great for me. But I never soley trust one source for a final mix. I always reference other sources.

A tannoy fan?

Which ones?

[Sporter]

I love the NS-10's. Have you looked into the sub-woofer to augment the bass?

[cmidkiff]

I use the Tannoy PBM-8. I thinks thats the number.

[Nika]

Chris,

Good monitors. I have 5 of the PBM6.5's as my surround setup in my living room. I've been a fan for quite a while.

Thanx!
Nika.

[T. Alan Smith]

I LOVE my Tannoy Reveal Actives.

I know they don't co$t as much as the Mackies, but I got real frustrated when I sat and tried out all these different speakers. I brought along a King's X CD I knew well.
Every pair of monitors sounded different! "No suprise", you say? Well, aren't studio monitors supposed to be an accurate representation of the material as opposed to consumer Hi-Fi speakers? Flat, unhyped response should mean these monitors should sound much more similar than they do.

With that said, I chose the Tannoys based on their detailed midrange and nice even response in the opposing ends of the spectrum. To my ears(I'm sure this is the answer to the above question), they sounded like what the music originally sounded like in the studio where it was recorded.

T. Alan

PS-
Monitors are ESSENTIAL, I know. However, put excess $$$ into mics, pre, and comps, etc... Where it matters most. My .02
Any feedback is welcome.

[Ernest828]

Heres a near field setup I`ve used for 2 years now and I`ve
gotten tremendous results.

I use the Mackies HR 824`s w/ Optimus 40`s shelf speakers.
These Radio Shack speakers sell for $20 / pr. & I`ve never had
a bad mix with them. The only problem is they blow very easily
so be careful.

You will not go wrong w/ the HR 824`s & the 40`s.
You may have a difficult time though finding them. If this is the
case... by the cheapest speakers you can in Radio Shack,
I think Optimus was bought by another company and goes by
another name.

Yes, this setup may seem unprofessional & "chessy", but I know
pro`s who use these things. Go for it!

[Alexander]

Here goes.... (if you are not interested in opinion, stop reading now)
The reason I put the monitor shoot-out together initially was to hear for myself the differences between the Tannoy system800A, JBL LSR25P and Mackie HR824 monitors in the same environment. At the time there were several studios that I consult which were at the point of deciding between one of the three listed and wanted to know which one was the *best*. I figured while was at it why not put up a pair of Event 20/20BAS and Tannoy Reveal Actives, I also wanted to try out the Genelec 1030A's along side the rest but one was defective so they sat out this time around.
Remembering that the purpose of -this- shoot-out wasn't to compare every monitor on the planet, the good 'ol NS10m's and many many others were not included....this time.
Anyhow, I gathered about 14 or so of my colleagues and asked them to lend me their ears. I routed each of the monitors through a SONY DMX-R100 console (nice console by the way) which I used as a switcher and proceeded to play various CD's ranging from Film score to R&B to Jazz to 80's Rock to...to...to.. you get the idea. Through each selection we would play the CD and switch from one set of monitors to the next. After we had heard them all, requests were taken and we would compare back and forth between them. This was consistent with each CD.
I must remind you at this point that this was a test to allow me to form a personal OPINION and although at times opinions varied within the listening group, the general consensus was quite uniform. First focusing on the first three monitors listed above, There were some musical examples which for some reason sounded just amazing on A specific monitor... maybe the album was mixed on those monitors, who knows. My personal findings were that although I would probably be very happy with any of them (seriously) , my ear found the Mackies to have the most *you are there* response. Their imaging is amazing. Very wide sweetspot and VERY natural sounding. I am confident I could mix on them and without re-learning or fatigue, come up with mixes that would translate well. I like the Tannoy's dual concentric design which gave a nice wide sweet spot and eliminated any phase issues often found in discrete component designs, but I they sounded very different from any other monitor I have mixed on. Almost like they were pushing the sound at me, and I would have to work a little harder to learn to mix through them I think at first. Oddly though, If I could learn them I think they have a lot of potential. Everything we played on them sounded very naked and revealing which could be very nice. The JBL's sounded very solid with nice imaging and had the same (to my ear) *something's going on in the mid's* that I have never been able to put into words, but that has made it harder for me to get an accurate mix from in days past on other JBL's. From the opinions of others in the room it was an *I love it or I hate it* issue. no real fence sitters. In the *what would you choose if they were free* contest, the winner overall was the HR824's. The System 800A's placed second.
On the smaller side of things, the Reveal Actives were AMAZING! They are the most accurate monitor in that price range that I have ever heard. Again, not everything was represented, but I've had the chance to hear most everything that would be competing in the powered nearfield category. The 20/20BAS' were nice but I think I decided that I would forgo the larger woofer for the accuracy of the Reveal's.. The Reveal Actives have a very nice tight low end. With a Sub they would be quite a pleasure to reference through. Especially for the price. My longest straight through mix session ever (35hrs)was using the 20/20BAS' which worked just fine but I like the imaging of the Reveal Actives better. The 20/20's had something extra happening in the mid's also.
Ok, lest this require a second chapter I'll rest...if you want to know more specifics, ask away. This was a very good learning experience for me. It reinforced the fact that you can and should learn to mix well through various monitors. If I could afford them all, I would own them all. Why not.

[T. Alan Smith]

Hip! Hip! Hooray for the Tannoy Reveals!!!

It's good to know I'm on the right track-thanks!

T. Alan

[Ernest828]

For the price the Tannoy Reveals are really nice, yet in and
around the same price range the Events were very nice
sounding as well.

In the end it all comes down to what the listener likes to hear
as well as the way you think your mixes need fixing.

Personally for me, the Mackies really give me everything I need
My mixes are proof. If money is not an issue, seriously consider
the $4000 pair of Genelecs. They`re beautiful too.

[Alexander]

For the purposes of my shoot-out I actually excluded the Genelec 1032A's because of the price varience. The 1031A's for the same reason. With no budget restrictions however, the 1031A's would be great! But I think in a side by side set up between the HR824s the 1031A's one might not hear enough of a difference to merrit the difference in cost between the two.(refer back to ---With no budget restrictions however, the 1031A's would be great!-- =) The 1032A's are in a completely different league.

[Ernest828]

I agree with that. I was referring to the Genelecs 1032`s in the
previous post.

Considering the Mackies price range and sound quality they are
the best deal for all budgets.

Even next to the Genelecs 32`s @ $4000.

[T. Alan Smith]

Ernest828 wrote:
"Considering the Mackies price range and sound quality they are
the best deal for all budgets. "

Sorry Ernest828, but I have to disagree with your statement. For my budget, the extra several hundred $$$ more the Mackies would have cost was put to better use towards mics, pres, etc...
That's what I was getting at in my earlier post on this thread. These are BOTH supposed to be professional studio monitors, and being nearfield in nature, supposed to assist in getting a mix/tones to transfer well to the real world while reducing side affects such as ear fatigue and such. Why should I have put more $$$ into something that does the same job as the Tannoys at 1/2 the price?

T. Alan

[Ernest828]

Hey T. Alan,

Monitors and just about everything else in life are a
matter of opinion and perspective so...

When I was researching monitors, the Reveals were definitely
making an impact on my choice. After hearing the Mackies there
was no doubt... It all depends on what you prefer.

No matter what your budget, my advice is... get you hands
and ears on everything you can and compare.
Even if you can`t afford the $4000 Genelecs
(if thats what you like); at least you have something to
compare to.

If Reveals work with you... Great. Then you have some
extra cash for mics, cables, etc... as you say. Peace.

[T. Alan Smith]

Not quite the philosophical answer I was looking for.

[JamesGrote]

I see no mention of Roland DS90s. I've been pretty impressed with what I've heard so far from these. A little more bass than the Reveal Actives, which sounded slightly bright to my ears. Nevertheless, just wondering if anyone else has used them and/or compared them to other near-fields.

They are $900 a pair, which is a decent price. I hope I'm not paying too much extra because they have digital inputs which I don't need at this time.

My concern with the Mackies is that they have an 8" woofer which might be too fatigueing at a close range/near-field setup. I don't want to have to pull my workstation desk way out from the wall, just to give the nearfields breathing room. How far should the Mackies be from you for comfortably listening?

[djstatik]

Hey James,

I understand there is a contour switch on the Mackies that let you adjust the bass for exactly the situation you describe. I need monitors that "thump" because I write dance music. I don't want an exaggerated thump, but the problem with the NS-10s is that they carry so little bass I tend to EQ the 80hz higher to push some air with them. When I get to a club with 12 eighteen inch woofers the bass is overbearing and I find myself cutting the bass on the mixer live, which is not good.

Like any monitors you can "learn" how to produce good mixes that translate to other systems using any monitor. I need something that does not cause ear fatigue and that sound exciting to listen to as I'm writing.

[Alexander]

Less my comments earlier become misleading. The Reveals do NOT offer the same performance as the Mackies. They are however very similar in their musically flat response. Different imaging and much different bass response.

* The DS90's are nice monitors. Great especially with a Roland VS workstation which allows you the COSM modeling of various models of monitors as well as the digital connection as has been mentioned.

If you want to hear the un-hyped bass you are really hoping for, the only real acurate way to get it is to use a speaker which moves the same amount of air as the club systems. It's not a matter of -can the speaker reproduce the frequency?- alone. It has a lot to do with how much air is moving toward you. It's the impact of the frequency being produced. I don't mean hype or boost. I just mean using a speaker (sub) that is created to acurately reproduce the frequencies in question.. Even the Mackies won't really let you hear what you are wanting to hear fully. They do get pretty close though. Choose some monitors that fit your budget and get a nice active sub like the Tannoy PS110B, the Genelec 1091A or the Sunfire TrusubPro.

[Ernest828]

Hi James,
To try to answer your question:
How far should the Mackies be from the walls?, all depends
on the size of your room and the style of music.
For example, my studio handles everything from hip hop
to rock to dance to acoustic to ballads so...

Basically the monitors are app. 3 feet from the wall behind them
and about 5 1/2 feet from the wall behind me. My listening
position is 3 1/2 feet from the monitors which is perfect
alignment with the monitors distance with each other & myself.
Even though the mixing room is rather small, I am able to
accurately compensate in the bass dept. whenever needed.
However, my first mixes w/ the Mackies, this was not the case.

My basic rules: (Any bass driven {hip hop, rap, dance} music)
Mackie settings are as follows:
Acoustic Setting: C
Bass Freq: 37hz
High Freq: 0 gain

When I mix any other style I use the following settings:
Acoustic Setting: C
Bass Freq: 80hz
High Freq: +2 db
(This setting is supposed to mimic the Yamaha NS-10s but they
really don`t.) I don`t think any manufacturer, including Mackie
would try to make their monitors sound like those pieces of junk.:)
Even though many mixers swear by them, you want to talk
about ear fatigue??? Yikes.

However, this setting does get my mixes to sound alot smoother
(less edgy) and "professional". I believe alot has to do with the
accented highs which gets me to tone down the mid range &
upper range. The upper freq. accentuation also helps to
eliminate some of the reverb sizzle, harsh electric guitar,
nasal vocals, etc...

Mixing / monitoring are too complicated to get involved with in
such a forun but there are some incredible books and articles
available to read up on and study.
Let me know if you`re interested and I `ll get the titles to you!
Peace!

[T. Alan Smith]

In response to Alexander's comments:

I agree with you on the Roland D90's. I liked the sound of them very much. I felt a little uneasy though, afraid I was paying for the digital outs. They would have come in handy with the modeling though. They reminded me of KRK's 8" active monitors but with a slightly more tame midrange. The Tannoys seemed quite similar as a whole to the d90's to me, but were tested in a different room than the others.

With that said, I still wouldn't pay anymore for the Mackies when you can do the same job on the Tannoys(and I know you can-your much more experienced than I-that's why I'm here anyway) and put that $$$ to better use.

T. Alan

[atma]

Does anyone have any opinions on these monitors? i know a well-known recording artist who uses them, to excellent results..

[DailyGrind]

Hi,

I'm researching a set of monitors for a room that's roughly 10' x 10' x 8'. Currently, the room's not acoustically treated (I know I have to fix that) and I'm using a pair of powered Acoustic Research stereo speakers as monitors.

I'm just getting back into music so I don't have any samples of my material but I plan to play mostly smooth jazz with some occasional rock/metal and heavy groove oriented ethnic stuff (I don't know how to describe it but bass will be prominent).

This will be my only pair of real monitors so I need to make it count. I'll obviously check my mixes on my pc (cambridge soundworks system with sub-woofer), home and car stereos. From what I've read and heard, it sounds like my decision should be between:

1) Mackie HR824s - $1260
2) Yamaha MSP10s - $1200
4) Tannoy Reveal Actives + PS110B subwoofer - $1100
3) Alesis M1 Actives - $499

All the prices above are currently from Sweetwater's website as a point of reference only. I can't justify purchasing anything more expensive than the HR824s but please let me know if I should consider anything in the same price range that I may have missed. I've actually listened to the Mackies and Yamahas and I listed the Alesis and Tannoy's based on what I've read in the forums. I added the sub-woofer to the Reveal's above since it's frequency response doesn't seem to cover the low-end as well as the rest of the listed monitors and it keeps it in the same price range as the Mackie and Yamaha.

I guess my questions are two-fold:

1) Given the huge price difference, are the M1 Actives even in the same league as the previously listed monitors?

2) Which setup would be the best for my needs?

Thanks!

[Alexander]

It sounds like you've really put some thought/work into this. I strongly feel that like microphones, monitors are more of a lifetime investment as well. There are several studios which I offer consultation to who are still mixing on the same monitors they purchased 10-20 years ago. (That can prove good or bad =)

The Alesis M1Actives are not in the same league as the Mackies.

I may seem really biased but I've put them to the test. I don't feel anyone has beat what the Mackies offer for the price. The closest competition to the Mackies in my opinion performance wise are the Genelec 1031A and Tannoy System800A's. These are in the same league. (but then look at the price)

I say bite the bullet, cry once, get the Mackie HR824's and be glad for many years to come.

[DailyGrind]

That's what I was afraid of but I've always felt you get what you pay for. Thanks for the quick response!

[recordingpro]

I agree with Alexander. The M1Actives really are incredible little speakers (can you remember what $500 would have gotten you 5-6 years ago !??! :rolleyes: ) However, there are just too many differances for them to realistically be compared to the mackies or yamaha's mentioned.

[blue_sky]

I've had a number of nearfields:

some old JBLs, krk 7000, audix studio 1As.

now i have the Dynaudio Acoustic BM15s; and they are awesome.
talk about revealing. if there is a problem, you will most definitely hear it. I think they are considered Mid-field monitors.

tremendous clarity and stereo imaging.

the other speakers i mentioned are very dull sounding in comparison.

I hear tannoys are quite good also.

[momo]

Tannoy gold, circa 1974... in their recommanded enclosure.
not too much bass, well balanced.
talking about ear fatigue, bass o/l just drowns me out. i kick in a sub to see what's happening in the lo-lows... but i don't need to monitor that frq range all the time.
thouhg i'm setting up a radio station and i'll put tannoy reveal in there.
momo

Originally posted by Nika


A tannoy fan?

Which ones?

[momo]

the genelec are super microscopicly acurate.
sureal, and awesome for detailed, complex textures.
no mention of the event 20/20.
i've just been introduced to them briefly for a gig, and i want to hear more... comments anyone?
momo

Originally posted by Alexander
It sounds like you've really put some thought/work into this. I strongly feel that like microphones, monitors are more of a lifetime investment as well. There are several studios which I offer consultation to who are still mixing on the same monitors they purchased 10-20 years ago. (That can prove good or bad =)

The Alesis M1Actives are not in the same league as the Mackies.

I may seem really biased but I've put them to the test. I don't feel anyone has beat what the Mackies offer for the price. The closest competition to the Mackies in my opinion performance wise are the Genelec 1031A and Tannoy System800A's. These are in the same league. (but then look at the price)

I say bite the bullet, cry once, get the Mackie HR824's and be glad for many years to come.

[Alexander]

My first real exposure to the 20/20's was on a project where I ended up having to mix for 30+hours non-stop. I was really able to get to know their sound. I think they sounded fine and seemed to translate ok. They do have a bit of harmonic distortion which caused a little fatigue after a bit, but they have a lot less than many others out there.
In a recent side by side comparrison I found I like the imaging of the Reveal Actives better but the 20/20's have a bit more low end response.

[alphajerk]

i am totally BLOWN away by my ADAM S3-a's. they sound better than any other speaker on the market... BAR NONE. they translate to any speaker/any system better than ANY speaker i have ever come across. they beat out the genelecs hands down and even meyer hd-1's apparently... there arent many products that i have come across where there isnt something else thats usable but this i have to say i will NEVER EVER EVER use another monitor. EVER. its what i make EVERY descision on which affects every descision and sound later on... the monitors are my eyes for my ears and i can finally see. i have yet to talk/meet anyone who has heard these ADAM's who have come away with anything less than a revelation as if they saw god for the first time.

the mackies arent that great IMO because they make ANYTHING sound good even though it really doesnt. not something i want to make descisions on for mixing [or getting sounds for that matter] and the Tannoy Reveals are just plain BAD for doing much of anything... they dont translate and actually make your mixes worse by compensating for the speakers inaccuracies. i wont even bother with ns10's...

[Alexander]

I have heard good things about the ADAM's I hope to have a chance to hear them sometime... I appreciate that your ear/room find them to be a good match for you.
As far as the Mackies go, I COMPLETELY disagree with the notion that they make EVERYTHING sound good. I have several disks people have given me that really Don't sound good on them.....trust me =)
Regarding the Reveal Actives,...you said and I quote, " Tannoy Reveals are just plain BAD for doing much of anything... they dont translate and actually make your mixes worse by compensating for the speakers inaccuracies." Where did that come from? What inaccuracies? I'm not a Tannoy employee, but that's a pretty strong statement...can you elaborate on specifics please.
I have to imagine that as monitors are as "to taste" as mic pre's, microphones and lava lamps, that your comments are self applying only. If you mean to direct them as applying to the rest of us....Where do you come up with those results? If they are really THAT bad in your opinion I'm interested in knowing where you listened to each of them, (in your room or someone elses) What lengths you've gone through for acoustically treating your room so as to be sure your room isn't where the problem exists and what specific style(s) of music you deal with.
Does anyone else share Alphajerk's opinion?

[alphajerk]

i OWN a pair of reveals and they SUCK! [COMPLETELY BOXY SOUND WITH A HIGHLY COLORED CABINET THAT IS OVERLY RESONANT IN THE MIDRANGE CREATING WEIRD ANOMOLIES THAT HINDER DESCISION NOT TO MENTION A TOTAL LACK OF BASS END] i have done mix after mix after mix, they suck... they ALWAYS drove me nuts. my realization came when i put up a mix on my ADAMs and got it sounding very sweet and then switched over to my reveals and the mix sounded relatively the same but i noticed the speaker anomilies that previously i was trying to correct and it was "blurring" my vision that i was ultimately making my descisions upon. lynn fuston mentioned this was called inverse correction [or something like that], needless to say... they cloud the picture of the mix/sounds.

i stand totally by all my statements, and monitors arent to "taste" as you put it once you have heard the ADAMs. wow, those mixes that sucked on the mackies must of REALLY SUCKED and probably sound like crap on anything.

i have listened to MANY monitors and MANY speaker setups ranging from the budget to the obscene. dont try to dissolve my statements until you have heard the ADAMs. this is NOT a matter of preference. trust me, i would of like nothing more than to NOT of had to spend so much on a pair of monitors and have tried everything in my power to find something AGAINST my statements myself...

[Alexander]

I'm not arguing that the Reveals are going to have the performance of the ADAM's that cost how much ?? They aren't even in the same category. Remember, we are talking about a pair of powered monitors that cost less than a decent mic. I am arguing that they are as bad as you've described. I'm am familiar with them and am not basing my coments on here say. I am still not clear with where you say the problem is with them technically. They are what they are for a solution under $1000 for a pair. No more, no less. They work great for showing you what your mix may sound like on a home or car system. They are cetainly adequate for most non-custom car systems out there.

What type of acoutical treatment/design have you done to your room? This is a very valid question relating to how you are hearing the sound out of your nearfileds. As different monitors have diferent characteristics each room will respond to monitors differently. This isn't opinion, this is physics. How various individuals like the combinations of different speakers in their room IS opinion. I know a very successful engineer who has mixed in the same room for over 15yrs now and he gets nice mixes out of his room... Oddly enough, he is the ONLY one who can get good mixes out of that room (until others have a chance to really get used to mixing there)...His room is horrible. He however found that KRK monitors allow him to get the best mixes because they compensate for the rooms inadequacies (he won't put it that way though, he just thinks KRK's are the best monitors on the planet. And of course they are....for him.)

Take me to a studio where there is a neutral mixing environment though and as long as they aren't having to compensate for the room's poor acoustics, any engineer who has any chops should be able to produce a mix that translates well on most home/car systems. .(let's not forget the purpose of a mastering engineer though) That's the whole point of nearfield monitors vs farfield...to give the engineer an idea what the mix will sound like OUTSIDE the studio environment. Unfortunately most people use them as a crutch to compensate for poor acoustics. As there are many types of home/car systems out there, many engineers use various monitors for several references. Why stick to one opinion if you have the option for more? Most of the clients I deal with that have mixes that don't translate well blame it on some piece of equipment they have like monitors when really the problem is in their room. Before we go putting down various products, let's make sure we're talking apples to apples. At this point I'm not convinced we are.

[atma]

don't mean to stray off topic.. but are the alesis m1 mkII's in stock? i have 2 weeks to finish a remix and i have no monitors and not much cash.

[alphajerk]

you dont understand what i am saying. i told you the short comings of the reveals, read my post again.

of course they arent apples to apples, ADAMs are apples, everything ELSE is oranges. when you hear ADAMs, all you will say is "how bout dem apples"

until you have heard them, you have no stance. its different.

[Nika]

Originally posted by atma
don't mean to stray off topic.. but are the alesis m1 mkII's in stock? i have 2 weeks to finish a remix and i have no monitors and not much cash.

Do you already have an amp? If so I'd recommend the Reveals (not the active ones). I think they're a great deal for the money (about the same as the Alesis) and I, personally, like them better.


Thanx!
Nika.

[Nika]

Alpha and Alexander,

To bring some light to the bit of a debate going on, and for the benefit of not you, but to those that are following along, can you guys answer the following questions.

Alpha and Alexander, concisely, what is the best value in powered monitors for under $500? Under $1000? Under $2000? Under $5000?

Also, what, exactly, have you HEARD, and what have you seriously MIXED ON? I'd like a point of reference for the opinions that are being thrown about.

Thanx!
Nika.

[alphajerk]

im not concerned with anything else other than the ADAMs. i will NOT waste money or time with anything else at this point. the topic IS "BEST nearfield monitors" and they ARE the BEST nearfield monitors BAR NONE. simple question and for once in my life, a simple [and more than confident] answer... try them, you will hear what im talking about. same thing happened to me... i was like "yeah. whatever... how good can they be"

and i agree with nika... yes, the alesis are worse than the reveals. but seriously, just go buy the yamama $99 speaker you can find at any stereo store [its what clearmountain did when he started using the ns10's until they found out and jacked the price up]


ask me what is the best kick drum mic and i wouldnt have a clue what to tell you... just too many choices for too many different sounds.

[Nika]

OK, Alpha.

I can appreciate your emphatacism, and I'm glad that you've found something that not only works very well for you, but something that you're happy with as well. Having said this, this is not just a forum for the three of us. Several other people will be looking on, and the ongoing topics are for the benefit of everyone. It sounds to me like Alexander has done a lot of listening and concluded that the Reveals are the best value he's found in monitors for under $1000 or so. You have said that you "[are] not concerned with anything else other than the ADAMs". Does this mean that you don't disagree with Alexander's observations?

Also, you have again said that the ADAMs are the best "bar none". It really is difficult to give that statement any credibility without knowing what falls in to the "bar none" category. Does this include the Genelec 1034B's? Does it include Tannoy AMS10's? Does it include KRK E8's? Does it include anything from Auchsperger or other custom manufacturers?

I'd just like for you to clarify your statement a little bit. What, exactly, have you compared the ADAMs to, and in what capacity? Then we can give your opinion precisely the credibility it's due.

Thanx!
Nika.

[alphajerk]

im willing to bet against all of the above. i have even extensively listened to dunlaveys iv's [sp?] bi-amp'd with levinsons and transparent cable and was not thrilled as much as i am with the ADAM speaker, my old fav was a set of B&W 802's with an Audio Research amp... they made my hair stand up on end. now both those setups costs QUITE a bit more than my little ole S3-a's [and i would LOVE to hear the S8-A's in a main control setup] i have mixed on Aus's with a finely tuned control room... impressive for sure but not practical and makes the ADAMs look like the deal of the century... especially when you hear how LITTLE the room comes into play with these.


it really has to do with the ART tweeter than any other thing [and i hear from people who have the S4-a's that the ART midrange is obscene as well]. its the way it affects your ears... its just DIFFERENT. the crazy thing is not only how GOOD they sound but how well the mixes TRANSLATE to other speakers, even to the crappiest.... but the level of detail and the soundstage is OBSCENE.

again, you DONT UNDERSTAND. its not what only works well for me. EVERYONE has been blown away who have experienced them.

look, i was fed the same shite i am now feeding you and was the same disbeliever. i was going to check them out and send them on their merry way... you couldnt pry them from my dead carcass now.

if you are looking for something under a grand, buy a $99 speaker from any stereo store, or buy those monsoon flat panel computer speakers with a sub, they sound a LOT better than the reveals and only run $129. i own a pair of reveals and i have done MUCHO mixing on them... well you know my thoughts well about how much i hate the reveals. might as well get some ns10's. most speakers below a grand are JUNK. just get the cheapest at that point. the cabinets are flimsy crap which totally color the sound so much that the cheap crossover components and whimpy drivers dont even factor as to why the sound is so colored. i dont agree with alexander at all. its just a waste of money in the long run.

i mean jeez, this is the MOST important piece of equipment in the studio... every descision you make is based on the monitors you listen to. invest in it. especially you of all people nika... mr. dpa with the $1k crossbar. obviously im sticking my neck WAY out there... im NOT a gambling man.

they asked what the BEST was... what speakers have you heard that made you drag out EVERY cd in your entire collection and feel like you were hearing them for the first time???

[Nika]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by alphajerk
again, you DONT UNDERSTAND. its not what only works well for me. EVERYONE has been blown away who have experienced them.

This statement just sounds very dangerous and unqualified to me. I'm sure the ADAMs are great speakers, but to say that EVERYONE who has tried them has had the same success you have is quite daring. I know of at least one person who was less than smitten by them.

look, i was fed the same shite i am now feeding you and was the same disbeliever...

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that I'm a disbeliever. I just think that your opinions here are presented very strongly and as though they're factual without much room for subjective opinions and with very sweeping but unsubstantiated generalizations. These types of opinions don't do me, as a customer, very much good. The types of opinions that are beneficial to me are that you have tried all of these speakers (yadda yadda yadda) and you, personally, found the ADAMs to fit your needs better for these reasons.... But to insist that everyone out there is going to like them to the same degree you do is, I believe, short sided and not helpful to me. I know you've tried the Reveals and didn't like them. I also know that before that you were mixing on home stereo speakers, no? And now we know you've tried Auchspergers and liked them but find them klugy for installation. But I've listened to each of the speakers that I previously mentioned, and I've mixed on several of them, and to insist that I, also, am going to prefer the ADAMs to all of the above is a sweeping comment with little substantiation for me to start with.

Is it not possible that certain aspects of the ADAM's will be WORSE than what I am currently using in some fashion? If so, isn't it possible that I may NOT like them because that key feature was something I was dependant upon for mixing?


if you are looking for something under a grand, buy a $99 speaker from any stereo store, or buy those monsoon flat panel computer speakers with a sub, they sound a LOT better than the reveals and only run $129. i own a pair of reveals and i have done MUCHO mixing on them... well you know my thoughts well about how much i hate the reveals. might as well get some ns10's. most speakers below a grand are JUNK. just get the cheapest at that point. the cabinets are flimsy crap which totally color the sound so much that the cheap crossover components and whimpy drivers dont even factor as to why the sound is so colored. i dont agree with alexander at all. its just a waste of money in the long run.

Now wait, you're saying that all speakers under $1000 are EQUAL? That there is essentially NO difference between ANY of them? You're saying that a bi-amplified monitor is going to sound the same as a $99 speaker thrown into a shoebox? Is that REALLY what you believe? Or are you exaggerating for the sake of making a point? I own 14 reference monitors in my house, several of them costing under $1000 per pair, and I will be the first person to tell you that there are VAST and UNDENIABLE differences between them, and that a mix on one pair is NOT necessarily the same as a mix on the other.

I believe that you're being emphatic, strong willed, and contributing sweeping generalizations again for the point of making your point on the ADAMs - a point that I'm pretty sure we've already gotten. I don't believe, however, that you truly find all monitors under $1000 to be on equal turf. I can't believe that. You don't like the Reveals, but does that mean they're only worth $99 to you? If so, I'll send you a check. So long as you make and stand by such wide, sweeping generalizations as this one that I don't believe you really believe based on other conversations we've had, I cannot rationally believe the other opinions on this matter that you've put forth.

i mean jeez, this is the MOST important piece of equipment in the studio... every descision you make is based on the monitors you listen to. invest in it. especially you of all people nika... mr. dpa with the $1k crossbar. obviously im sticking my neck WAY out there... im NOT a gambling man.

Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe in the value of buying good monitors, but my monitor buying decisions will come from rational information presented to me. Currently I think that buying ANY monitor will be a bad idea for me. I'm very familiar with what I have, and I'd rather not cross horses mid stream. I've got much better places to invest that are EQUALLY as important to my situation as the monitors. After all, good monitors don't do you any good unless you have something decent to put in to them. Some new mics and a new reverb box are next for me....

3:00AM thoughts......

Nika.

[Ernest828]

This forum is going on waaaayyyy tooooo long.
The simple truth is whatever monitors you use doesn`t matter.
Some people make great mixes on NS 10s, others on Reveals
and yes (believe it or not) even on Mackies so... Whatever
monitor you choose is fine as long as it works for you.

If you have not heard all of the monitors out there you are
cheating yourself.

Lets end this forum, please. Enough already!

[atma]

nope, no amp. i'm monitoring through a bloody aiwa 100 watt shelf system. help :(

[alphajerk]

nika nika nika, im quite curious as to who this one anonymous person is who didnt like them... [maybe its a speaker manufacturer who is "less than smitten" due to outright fear of their own line... i know of a couple manufacturers who challenged them with theirs and "lost"] but i seriously dont believe you... i know of one person who THOUGHT they didnt like them but then apparently wasnt thinking of the right speaker [which totally puts doubt into their opinion... hint: sigma]


i have heard the speakers you mentioned above as well as many other speakers. MANY speakers. the speakers I USED to use were ones i was QUITE familiar with that i have been listening to for 15 years... being home speakers doesnt make one bit of difference. NS10's were home speakers before the price was jacked up on them due to clearmountains interest...

yes, i believe that all <$1000 speakers are less than ideal each in their own way. they are all compromises. i will say that all <$1500 amp'd speakers are as well just to get the mackies in the statement... mackies are VERY deceiving speakers. i have heard about all of them, and i have used a good number including the mackies to mix on. spending less than a grand i would advise personally to get something real cheap and save your money. it is a plain and simple fact that a uncolored speaker can NOT be made under $1000 especially amp'd. or at least i have not come across them, i hear PAS or someone has a pair out unamp'd for $1200 but i havent heard them... but a good amp is going to run $1k so figure the total to hit $2200.

nika, i know your overlay scientific analizations cant comprehend what i am saying. just listen to a pair, the speakers you have in your house dont even come close. this is so much more art than science.

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by atma
nope, no amp. i'm monitoring through a bloody aiwa 100 watt shelf system. help :(

now THATS real world. keep using it and save your money.

[Nika]

Originally posted by alphajerk
this is so much more art than science.

No pun intended?


:)

Nika.

[recordingpro]

Wow! Looks like quite a discussion going on here! AlphaJerk, I have also heard good things about the Adams speakers. I am curious as to what an average price is for a pair like you have, as I haven't done much looking (perhaps you already mentioned this and I just missed it) I will also agree that most cheaper speakers should be politely considered "playback monitors" instead of referance monitors. I do think though that you are being a little overly hard on some of the cheaper equipment. I've personally witnessed many situations where a novice engineer was able to dramatically improve the quality of his mixes, simply by trading up to something just a little better. I will say that I personally agree that all things being equal, I wouldn't prefer to waste my money on cheaper speakers. Get a great set of Adams, Genelecs, Meyers, KRKs, Mackies, etc, and consider it a longterm investment.

Each persons needs are unique, and there will be a myriad of products to fill those various needs. It sounds like the Adams have definately filled your needs well. I'd love to hear some of the stuff you've been working on, do you by chance have any mp3's online that you could share with us ?

[alphajerk]

$3990 for the S3-A's [32hz-35khz], they would probably list retail @ $6-6.5k. and they do sound different than the genelec, meyer, krk's, {and mackies??? [those arent even oranges... more like bananas]} of which the meyers are the only set i havent heard myself. although i have been trying to get a friend to bring his set up for a shootout... he declines. but i know of a fairly well know guy who has meyers who is in love with the ADAMs. i hear the meyers arent very "musical". just check them out and then come argue with me... until then, they are my answer to the thread. and i would like to thank the person who sounded like a complete nutball who told me about them... my ears are forever grateful.

oh, and btw... they allow me to make proper descisions making my mixes better... and you would be suprised how horrible some mixes are that you THOUGHT sounded good before... [my "seasoned pros" no less]

this is my last post on this thread. i have more than stated my opinion. what people do with it is up to them.

recording pro, email me your mailing address and i will send you some new mixes on them [and i will send some mixes of the same songs not done on them]

[recordingpro]

Very cool. Thanks for the info, and for your opinions. As for the mackies, I wouldn't quite put them in the league with meyers etc, but as they are so incredibly popular, that I felt they deserved mention.
As for your recordings, I'd love to check out some of your stuff, so I'll drop you a line via private message......

[Alexander]

So....Anyway Scott, as I was saying......
in answer to your original question to someone who owns the Mackies and has an opinion......I own the Mackies and they are really nice. Lots of GREAT imaging and accurate, flat response with a low end that won't disappoint you.

A nice lower cost alternative would be the Tannoy Reveal Actives.

Let YOUR ears be the judge. Good luck

[alphajerk]

what a sales pitch. make sure you listen to those monsoon flat panels with sub next to the mackies and the reveals. then listen to some real speakers.

and use YOUR ears ;)

[atma]

look m8.. it's simply not practical for most people to run out and buy a $5000 pair of monitors. you're sounding like an over zealous religious fanatic. The truth is, if you can't make a good mix on anything but an esoteric 5 grand pair of monitors, then i think it's a matter of your skills, not the monitors.

[Nika]

Ouch!

[alphajerk]

i didnt say i did need $4k speakers but then again, with that logic why buy nice pres or mic's. why do you need anything more than a portastudio to make a great recording??? but its not really that much to spend for the most important thing in your studio. what IS $4k for speakers when my mic costs $2k and the pre its running into costs $2500? how about mr dpa with his $5k mics and $1k stereo bar... wonder how much HE cares about his monitors.... hmmm. too bad he cant REALLY hear what those mics sound like.

i even advised to get the cheapest ones possible if you werent getting something worth the money. i see no reason to but mackies which IMO are less than accurate [more like massively hyped] for $1200 when you can get a pair of ADAMs S1-a's @ $1900... not much more for a LOT better soundstage.

i dont see any benefit of <$1k speakers and would most certainly consider some el cheapo $129 speakers instead. you should really hear those monsoon flat panels. im serious. like recording pro stated, they are simply playback monitors.

[SR1200]

wow, this is a heated argument now isnt it.....
I use JBL 4208's for my mains and a pair of VERY inexpensive Peaveys for reference, and a pair of PC speakers, AGK 240 headphones and a REALLY crappy pair of radio shack REALISTIC stereo speakers. All are plugged into different respective amps (ie the stereo speakers are plugged into a stereo, the PC speakers into the PC) I feel that its not how GOOD it sounds on your $4000 pair of whatevers.... (cause very few people are going to listen to the recording on TOP END studio monitors in YOUR room) Its how good it sounds on the CRAPPIEST pair that you have (and man those radioshacks are BAD, LOL!!!) When the mix sounds good through those.... IM DONE! 1 last note.... i do feel it is best to TRACK your recording on the best possible speakers you can get, but mixing using ONLY them is a mistake.... and a mistake ive made many times and have finally learned from!

PS please dont rip me apart.... its only my opinion....

[alphajerk]

i used to say that [and do that too]. fortunately i can ENJOY myself mixing AND it TRANSLATES [even to crummy computer speakers] perfectly. i unhooked all my other speakers now.

but i DID say buy the crappiest if your not going to buy the best...

[Ernest828]

SR and Alpha,

I agree with you both. Radio Shack makes some of the cheapest speakers around but they
are one of the finest I have mixed on. This is the reason why the NS 10`s have become so
popular. Love them or hate them, Yamaha is discontinuing these monsters, I mean
monitors. After Bob Clearmountain stated he used them to mix, Yamaha went ahead and
raised the price tag.

I`d like to say, alot of people who have not worked on Radio Shack speakers (the ones
that cost less than $50 a pr.), don`t know what we`re talking about. On the same hand,
those who have not heard a $4000 pair don`t know what we`re talking about either.
Having had the luxury to hear both extremes I can honeslty say, if you can afford the
$4000 pair, buy the $40 pair from Radio Shack as well. This is a luxury many can not afford, however.

There are many people on this forum who have not had the chance to hear these
extremes, and it is these people who continue to keep this endless forum going. I`ve also
heard the Tannoy Reveals, Tannoy 800 A`s & 600`s, Event PS8 Monitor, Hafler TRM8, all kinds
of Genelecs, JBL`s, the Mackies HR824 (which I own), Hot House, HHB`s, etc...
I`ve heard them all. It all comes down to taste and these my friends are very different in
all of us.

I laugh when I hear an individual continously rant on about a particular monitor, claiming
it to be the "best monitor". There is no best all around monitor, just preferences. Peace.





Radio Shack

[SR1200]

Earnest - dont think for a min. that im knocking radio shack. That company has helped me many a times in my cuircuit building. (I built an internal active preamp for bass guitar that would make you cry, using all radio shack parts, i also built a headphone amp/splitter) A lot of people dont realize that Radio shack items are actually manufactured by BIG names. I believe Shure builds all of radioshacks microphones (they used to atleast) As for the pair of speakers im using.... they were my dads from before i was born, the rubber on the cones its being held together with a prayer and one of the cabs has a crack in it. Theres no tweeter and no woofer just a midrange with a port. Thats the ultimate in poop! lol

[funkebeatz]

Well, In my opinion you should use several sources to finalize your mix. Not every person that hears your mix is going to have $5K monitors. You should get a pair of honest monitors but also use a boom box and even a car stereo to finalize your mix on. Granted it may sound awesome on expensive monitors but if it sound crappy on someones stereo that might be buying your product who cares? Afterall, they are paying for your product.

[alphajerk]

you all are seriously missing what im saying. my opinion of the ADAMs being the best monitor not only have to do with how great they sound but also [and most importantly] HOW WELL THEY TRANSLATE to even the shittiest of speakers.

before these, i would have certainly agreed with every one of your statements. now i do not in any way. but that is just something you will have to find out for yourself. ANYTHING i put the mix on sounds great now so instead of having to check several monitors, i only use these without any concern for translation because i KNOW that it will sound good. isnt that alone with the $$$ for peace of mind?


anyways, its your studio. do as you please. my opinion has not changed. ive told you the information, what you do with it is up to you.

[atma]

i still think this is a bit absurd-if you can't get the most expensive monitors just use cheap radio shack speakers??? i now have a pair of Event PS6's, and compared to the cheap aiwa system i was using, this had made a massive difference. i now have a clear idea of what's going on with my audio, whereas with cheap speakers, you have no idea how much bass or treble or mid there really is. at least with a fairly flat reference, you can have some idea, some kind of standard. otherwise, how can you judge? cheap speakers are all going to sound different, so there's no way a mix on any of them is going to translate to other cheap or 'average' home systems..

the ps6's may not be anything near a high end monitor, but like i've said, it immediately makes a huge difference to mix on something that is fairly flat-it takes out a lot of the guesswork and frustration i had using the aiwa system.

[SR1200]

I agree atma, we cant all have studios that use TOP of the line gear. Most of us use what we can afford and get by just FINE with it! I want to add one more thing in also.... the multitrack you use makes a HUGE difference also in what your mix will sound like. I just got my HDR2496(mackie..been saving a long time for this!) and the sound thats coming out of that is SO much more clear than the previous recorder i was using. But I think that EVERYTHING in the studio plays a part in how things are gonna sound... not just the monitors. Its Great to have TOP of the line monitors... but most of us arent in a 20x40 room where their full effect is realized. You can have the best speakers known to man, and if your room sucks... the speakers are gonna sound ******..... and one more thing i might add..... monitors and nearfields are considered 2 different things in a professional studio. So all this arguing over "monitors" really doesnt deal with the topic.

[alphajerk]

my "monitors" ARE nearfields and they certainly arent the most expensive either. in fact meyers are more expensive... so are some of the genelecs as well as many other companies.


and the recorder doesnt make a bit of difference... its the convertors and the clock...

[SR1200]

The converters and the clock are part of my recorder... sorry if i pissed you off. And every studio (professional) I've ever been in.... none of the engineers ever referred to the nearfields as monitors. It was ether put it on the nearfields or put it on the monitors. I guess I just got used to that.

[blacko3788]

I've had many types of speakers from jbl to paradymn and ns10....yuk! I have recently purchased the hr824's from Sweetwater. not to give Sweetwater an awesome plug, but the sales staff were dead nuts in saying that these puppies are freaking great. You wont be let down!
CJ Attick Studios

[alphajerk]

im not pissed sr1200, i reread it and can see why you thought that... my bad. i have always called them mains...

[gchapman1965]

Originally posted by Nika
Chris,

Good monitors. I have 5 of the PBM6.5's as my surround setup in my living room. I've been a fan for quite a while.

Thanx!
Nika.

Nika,

I have a pair of PBM 6.5's and have lost or misplaced my boxes and papers. Can you tell me the power rating of these monitors? I'm starting to look for a power amp to run these for mixing on my computer and can't remember what size amp that I had before.

Thanks,

Greg

[Nika]

100W per side peak.

I use the limpet on the center channel, but on the others I use a Stewart Amp (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/results.tpl?action=full&--eqskudatarq=PA200B&Criteria=Results)

Nika.

[d-dmusic]

Hi djstatic :
I own the HR824's and they are, by far, the best monitors I've owned or heard. Anywhere. The mixes I've done translate very well to any system that I've had a chance to check on including an audiophile system with B&W Matrix 802's ! Beauty.
The ruler flat response is confidence inspiring in that what you hear is what you get. The excellent bass extension is critical. Alot of top engineers believe that getting the bass "right" is a huge part of getting the mix right. "Right" varies with the type of music you're doing but with the HR824's you can mix anything.
Watch the HVAC noise. You mentioned it's not much but..... I had my CPU in a foam filled rack but recently I moved it into a completely different room and it did make a difference in the audibility of low level detail.

[Alexander]

Alphajerk,
Please qualify what you mean by
"and the recorder doesnt make a bit of difference... its the convertors and the clock..."

Thanks

[c_sthilaire]

I have been using the Event Tria system in my room for a couple of years. Ilove them. All my mixes have translated very well to other playback systems. I have recently added 5 Event ps5's to give me surround. My comprimised reference monitoring is done through a Yamaha Digital Reciever(5.1). My mixing room is diffused but not dead. I just treated problem frequencies to achieve a more flat response from my room. In my tracking room I use Event 20/20's with a Tannoy 10' SUB(ps-110b) works out really well.

Christopher St. Hilaire

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by Alexander
Alphajerk,
Please qualify what you mean by
"and the recorder doesnt make a bit of difference... its the convertors and the clock..."

Thanks

once the signal is converted from analog to digital, the recorders are merely the storage for said information. technically the data on a mackie is the same as a tascam as any DAW as it is in a radar as it is an in r1. mostly what you are buying is operation, editing capabilities of whatever "recorder" you buy assuming you are feeding them all of external convertors.

so basically when you are talking about the "sound", you are referring to the ADAC's and the clock that is running those convertors.

[kenchsu]

what would be some of the good nearfield monitors at different price categories, say, $500, $1000, $2000+ or something...

I am also looking to pick up a pair of nearfields, but I don't have $5000+ to spend :D So some kind of comparison sorted by price range would also be helpful to those of us who are looking for something better... Anyways, since I don't own any pro reference speakers, when I mix I just make sure they sounds good in:

1. a pair of headphones
2. my car
3. my home stereo

That's it :)

[tc4542@home.com]

Obviously these people don't get it Alpha. I've had every major monitor in the last 20 years and a mothership studio for 12 years of my life to boot. The ADAMS are like nothing I've ever heard, ever. If your mix is right on those, it's right, period, end of story. What he's not sharing with you is how hard it is to get a mix on these speakers. Others lie. My 1032AS are in the corner collecting dust. Monitors are important guys. I get a kick out of all these people, including myself, who make such a big deal out of the rest of the recording chain when the differences are quite subtle in most cases. Investment in a great set of monitors is a must. Trust me I lived with NS10s for years. They ruined my life. Your mix is everything. Just try um and see. It's a good investment into your mixing future, you too Nika. They will change your life.
Thanks,
Ted.

This does not mean you can't get a good mix on other monitors. It means if you have 4k to spend one should check these out before buying the next "hot rod" efx box or "super pre". All this stuff is well and good, and lord knows I have it all, but you gotta mix the song in the end. This is what separates the men from the boys. Oh yea, a great, well played song to mix doesn't hurt the outcome either. In my not so humble opinion.

[tjonesmusic]

Originally posted by tc4542@home.com
Obviously these people don't get it Alpha. I've had every major monitor in the last 20 years and a mothership studio for 12 years of my life to boot. The ADAMS are like nothing I've ever heard, ever. If your mix is right on those, it's right, period, end of story. What he's not sharing with you is how hard it is to get a mix on these speakers. Others lie. My 1032AS are in the corner collecting dust. Monitors are important guys. I get a kick out of all these people, including myself, who make such a big deal out of the rest of the recording chain when the differences are quite subtle in most cases. Investment in a great set of monitors is a must. Trust me I lived with NS10s for years. They ruined my life. Your mix is everything. Just try um and see. It's a good investment into your mixing future, you too Nika. They will change your life.
Thanks,
Ted.

This does not mean you can't get a good mix on other monitors. It means if you have 4k to spend one should check these out before buying the next "hot rod" efx box or "super pre". All this stuff is well and good, and lord knows I have it all, but you gotta mix the song in the end. This is what separates the men from the boys. Oh yea, a great, well played song to mix doesn't hurt the outcome either. In my not so humble opinion.


I think I am one of the first in my neck of the woods to purchase a monitoring rig from a new company called Blue Sky. They were brought to my attention by a review in Pro Sound News and recently there was another one in Surround Pro. I have compared them to many other monitoring rigs (genelec, KRK, Mackie...), but this one seems to be the best deal out there. It is configured in what they call a 2.1 system - meaning, two biamplified Sats and 200-watt 12" sub. This system is THX pm3 approved, is extremely accurate, plays very loud and is truly "full-range". I purchased them about two weeks ago and I love these damned things. Especially since they were the same price as a pair of Mackies...

These guys deserve some support, check out some of the reviews on their website... www.abluesky.com/p/p2s4.html - By the way, those who have concerns about Sat/Sub systems, this system sounds like a pair of big "in-wall" monitors. It is by far the best performing nearfield system I have ever heard.

[rameau]

Anyone have any experience with Halfer powered nearfields?

[Alexander]

I heard the TRM6's and TRM8's when Hafler came to Sweetwater and I thought they sounded very nice. No complaints from that demo. I have not mixed on them in my own room though.

[alphajerk]

careful with anything from hafler... their amps leave a lot to be desired for. they are really punchy but not so musical sounding.

[d-dmusic]

I owned a Hafler P3000 and it was an outstanding amplifier. Quiet with a capital Q and very musical sounding. A friend of mine also owns one in his studio and has no complaints whatsoever.
I have not heard their powered nearfields but if their amps are any indication they would be excellent.

P.S. I never found them to be "punchy" either. Not in the least.

[blacko3788]

:)

[tjonesmusic]

Originally posted by blacko3788
Sorry Alphjerk I know the adams are probably the best studio monitor out there but I think many people who come to these chat rooms are under the millionaire status like myself. Maybe we can start a new forum for the High End studio where price isn't an object. I know the one of the best mics out there are the AKG C12vr but I wont have the dough for a while so I bought a nuemann tlm 103 which in my opinion sounds great. It's all about getting the best bang for the buck. I own a pair of Mackie Hr824s and think they fabulous. I myself have a+b them to other studio monitors and have found them to lead any other speakers in that catagory. I know you have a great passion for music just like I do and would love to hear some of the sessions you've recorded; it sounds like you have some awesome gear. I hope you don't think I'm harpin on you but Alexander is right when he say the Mackies are the best speaker in it's class.

Well I know that most of you have never heard the system from Blue Sky, but it makes the Mackies sound broken (although I own a pair of them and NS10s as well). They are the same price as the Mackies. They are THX pm3 Approved and INCLUDE a 200-watt sub. The system sounds like big in-wall studio monitors. There is a link posted above... It is a new company, but they have been wonderful!

[d-dmusic]

"...makes the Mackie's sound broken..."
Ya right.
Also, I've heard "in wall systems" sound positively tubby without clarity and definition. Oh yeah, they were loud ! Big deal.
I'll take the Mackies. Thanks.

[tjonesmusic]

Originally posted by d-dmusic
"...makes the Mackie's sound broken..."
Ya right.
Also, I've heard "in wall systems" sound positively tubby without clarity and definition. Oh yeah, they were loud ! Big deal.
I'll take the Mackies. Thanks.

Well it is just my opinion. I would say up until I got this new system, I though the Mackie's were the best thing going. I know Mackie has a Subwoofer coming out. Maybe that will help what I think is really lacking with the Mackies - they just run out of gas in the low end. With regards to the tubby in wall systems - I would agree with your comment on that. Hey, I was obviously did not say "they sound like tubby in-wall monitors".

[d-dmusic]

tjones :
You really need a sub with the Mackies ?
I think it could be nice but ....
Below 38Hz stuff is waaayy down there. Good for wow factor and the occassional referral.... I suppose....just in case someone moved a mic stand or something. It happens.

[tjonesmusic]

Originally posted by d-dmusic
tjones :
You really need a sub with the Mackies ?
I think it could be nice but ....
Below 38Hz stuff is waaayy down there. Good for wow factor and the occassional referral.... I suppose....just in case someone moved a mic stand or something. It happens.

It may go down to 38Hz, but runs out of gas quickly if you push it. I would cross it over at 80Hz, which will increase the headroom and lower distortion. I would add that below 60Hz you get into power and excursion problems with the Mackie. This has just been my experience. The mic comment actually is very true - especially when dealing with recordings that were recorded live. This system is just really true to what you are recording. If you have the chance check out the system from Blue Sky, you will see what I mean.

Tj

[DailyGrind]

Before I heard about the Prolinear 820's, I had pretty much decided that the HR824's where the best bang for the buck in it's price range. How do the Prolinear 820's compare in quality? These are to be used in an acoustically imperfect home studio for mostly jazz, r&b, rock & fusion where all instruments are recorded direct. Thanks!

[synesthesia]

well, i just finished reading the whole thread...

having been in sales, i've listened to a few monitors. i've also been forced to fairly deal with some of the questions posed here.

by no means would i consider myself an expert. hell, i haven't even heard the ADAMS yet. i want to, but i haven't.

one of the best (and i'm not saying it's all that great) annalogies /i've/ come up with:

monitors are the lenses through which we see our mix.

so think of them as glasses. not everyone CAN use the same lenses! ...only some lenses are better than others.


someone asked a while back if anyone agreed with Alpha: are the Mackies flattering?

i think so. to MY EAR, they lack detail, and do not sound clinical.

someone else also said: but the mackies are SO popular!!

the ANUS-10's were/are too (NS-10)

am i right? possibly, possibly not - totally depends on ear.


alpha seems to be of the 'all or none' oppinion... some seem to disagree, and rightly so. i think, in all fareness, show some respect. please don't criticize until you've actually heard what he's talking about. it seems pretty brash to me, cutting him down when one hasn't TRIED the monitors he's talking about. i think the same goes for everyone else.

i have also heard some say 'you can mix on anything', right? providing you can accomodate for the anomalies in said system.

i disagree. it's difficult to accomodate for lack of detail, lack of good imaging. it can be done to an extent, i think, but it's not the same as having some GOOD monitors.

furthermore, someone i think was comparing the Mackies to the System800's?!? sure they're the same price, but a TOTALLY different philosophy. between Hafler, Roland, JBL, Tannoy, Event, Alesis; there are a LOT of sounds!! all of which are unique.

does it really matter how much the **** costs?! find a pair that WORK for YOU!!

i'd be happy to discuss sonic qualities or anything else for that matter :) i'll be checking back.

in this case, (though extreme), i'd say: forget specs, forget everything else - trust your EARS!!

-stef

p.s. alpha, if you're still out there (?) - how would you contrast the S3's with other stuff out there? like i said, i haven't heard them yet, so i'd like to hear what you have to say!

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by synesthesia
alpha, if you're still out there (?) - how would you contrast the S3's with other stuff out there? like i said, i haven't heard them yet, so i'd like to hear what you have to say!

like night and day... in fact, there is a bit of difference within their own line. the S4-A's dont sound the same as the S3-A's, the next one up similar to the S3-A's apparently [i havent heard them but would love to] is the S5-A's which are $12k and soffit mounted speakers [then the control room plays a HUGE factor with the sound, so it better be good]

the S3-A's despite what people have alluded to previously on this thread are quite small for what they do. they measure 9"x20"x12", not very big for how well they hold down the bottom end.

i even had an audiophile friend in town a few weeks back who is the FIRST to put something down for a myriad of reasons. he couldnt come up with one bad thing about them... well one drunken night we were cranking the living crap out of them to see how far we could take them and finally shut down one of the amps inside. it was LOUD... i have heard louder systems with the same clarity but for NORMAL listening/mixing, you dont even approach this volume.

plain and simple, this is why they rock:
translation: absolutely no suprises when something mixed on these gets played on another system
clarity: these are the most visual speakers i have ever listened to... things you never thought were there before are suddenly clear as day when listening to these. the most minor EQ or DYN adjustments made are easily discernable
transparent: i know that words sucks, i even hate that word... but this is the one time i will use it. you totally forget the speakers are even there as if sound eminates from out of nowhere/everywhere
plus many more...

[d-dmusic]

"i have also heard some say 'you can mix on anything', right? providing you can accomodate for the anomalies in said system.
i disagree. it's difficult to accomodate for lack of detail, lack of good imaging....."


I agree with synesthesia on this. I've mixed on alot of different systems and trying to "compensate" for a system is just guesswork. And, having a good room to mix in goes hand in hand with the monitors. The room and the monitors are a package and both contribute significantly to what you are/are not hearing.

Confidence in your system counts for alot IMO. When you know your system extremely well and you know it translates beautifully you can then explore the limits more confidently.

[zach]

i highly suggest you guys consider other speakers that are not in the pro audio line. m talking about highend speakers like dynaudio, celestion 5, and the latest from earth works the sigma 6.2 all are +_2db with vifa tweeters totaly uncolored and very neutral. the sigma 6.2 is now getting good reviews from pro engineers and audiophiles alike.

[michaelhoddy]

Nearly a year and a half later... :)

I will say that a flat speaker does not necessarily equal better translation. I am another member of the ADAM cult as well, but I have heard quite a few flat speakers which did not translate as well.

I really don't care about anything else but translation to other environments personally. I know that there are other speakers which have better specs than the ADAMs, but my ADAM mixes translate flawlessly every time. There really are no surprises.

[Brandon Hook]

I'm currently looking to fix a translation problem.....which is this: My mixes DO NOT TRANSLATE AT ALL!!!!!. Of coarse..I'm using an older pair of Cerwin Vega 8" speakers with a 1" silk dome tweeter. I find that all of my mixes are either very bass heavy...or very bass light(depending on the music), and usually lack all definition in the midrange. I am contemplating getting either the Tannoy active reveals, or either of the mackie's (624's or 824's). I am currently mixing in a room 9X14X8' with almost no treatment for acoustics...however, I will be building two new rooms this month and hope to complement the new rooms with new monitors. my new control room ( 7.5' by 12' by 19.5') will be very symetrical about the monitors and have the shell design and sloping ceiling (also in the front), combined with the occasional bass traps, absorbsion and diffusion panels. Which monitors (room acoustics aside) do you think would more accurately help my translating issue, and can I get them for free?


jk

[JeffBarnett]

I would strongly encourage you to look into ADAM monitors. They start at $1700 / pr. A little more than a pair of 824's, but SO worth it. I won't give you a sales pitch for them, just read almost any audio-related forum, and you'll find an ADAM thread.

[Vp Premier]

Originally posted by JamesGrote
I see no mention of Roland DS90s. I've been pretty impressed with what I've heard so far from these.


That's funny, you seem to be the only one I know, or have seen, that likes the Ds90's. The tweeter on them is off badly and there is not enough low end. That said digital inputs on a nearfield, or any monitor, is not efficacious. What happens if you want to use another sampling rate? It's locked rate doesn't help your mix should you want to go 24/96. I've seen nothing but bad reviews of this monitor.

[Vp Premier]

Originally posted by Brandon Hook
My mixes DO NOT TRANSLATE AT ALL!!!!!. Of coarse..I'm using an older pair of Cerwin Vega 8" speakers with a 1" silk dome tweeter.


jk

Are these bookshelf speakers or monitors?

[Vp Premier]

Noone here likes Alesis? Cost effective and you can't beat the sound for the price. Monitor one's and monitor twos for more bass ...

[eclein]

I have heard alot of speakers in my day...I'm 45 and back in this business again drumming and recording and all that comes with it.
I bought Event TR5's...the tuned reference monitors. I can't believe how good they sound. Accurate as I have heard. My room is problematic so nearfields are my only choice as far as monitoring goes. I also mix in headphones to start then go out to the Events when I'm getting close to where I want to be.

I have found that what I hear on these TR5's is what I hear when I listen in the car or a boom box or whatever. I love em...they fit my budget $299 and totally round out my little studio. (My studio consists of a corner in my finished off basement) Check em out somewhere if you can and then buy them here. They were a great choice for me.
ed

[Replay]

Great thread,
Sorry for cutting in but can someone recommend a good matching amp for my Tannoy system 800 passive monitors?
Currently I'm using Alesis RA-100.

Thanks

[EphICanIMite]

Hey dj,
I have a pair of Alesis monitor ones which I always though sounded pretty good. That is til I made a recording for someone else and put it in my car stereo. ICK!
Back to the drawing board. I started reading everthing I could about mixing and found that there was a lot of things (not including the speakers) that were the problem. Room acoustics, monitoring position (your ears in relation to the speakers location), location of mix position in the room. So much to learn and I'm still such a novice. Needless to say, I'm now in the process of investing (yes, I look at it as an investment) a much larger part of my budget in the room itself and am hoping it will pay off huge.
But anyways, take a cd you like the sound of and listen to it on your monitors. Take the cd to a store that sells all that gear and listen to every monitor you can afford. If they have your model of monitors even listen to those. Then make your decision. Then buy 'em from Sweetwater.

good luck

EPH

[EphICanIMite]

Hey dj,
I have a pair of Alesis monitor ones which I always though sounded pretty good. That is til I made a recording for someone else and put it in my car stereo. ICK!
Back to the drawing board. I started reading everthing I could about mixing and found that there was a lot of things (not including the speakers) that were the problem. Room acoustics, monitoring position (your ears in relation to the speakers location), location of mix position in the room. So much to learn and I'm still such a novice. Needless to say, i'm now in the process of investing (yes, I look at it as an investment) a much larger part of my budget in the room itself and am hoping it will pay of huge.

good luck

EPH

[mchimes]

Hi Folks,

I'm selling a pristine pair of Tannoy System 800a's . . . I will be upgrading to the System 1200. All original packing materials . . . mint condition.

mhimes11@cox.net

Thanks,
Mike Himes

[jazz-fusion-2003]

I recently started work in my new project studio and after checking out all the above monitors found the genelec's(1029a with matching sub) do the best "monitoring" by far. Unless you like a heap of volume or the control room has inherent acoustic issues, the word (imo) is Genelec. We do house,fusion,voice-overs,percussion laden latin-you get to hear everything(every bad sound) which helps you produce good sound with all the other tools,musicians etc you work with.
Regards and good luck, James Marl

[helicopter]

Get Tannoy reveals passive.
You will be amazed.

[xstatic]

Everybody definately has their own taste. I have never had a good experience with the Mackie 824's. However, I really like the 2 new 6" Mackie monitors. In my opinion they sound much better and bigger than the larger cousin. As far as the Genelecs go, I hated the 1029's and the 1030's. Granted I did not listen to them with a sub, but the 200 to 800 hz range sounded VERY weak to me on them. So for me, I could not use them since I do mostly heavier rock. However, I would love to have them in my home system:D

I would loved to have been able to afford a pair of ADAM monitors, but after buying two more consoles for my studio, I had to settle for a pair of Dynaudio BM6's. Settle for:D

[helicopter]

Ah the Genelec debate again
They ALWAYS sound better than they should therefore not helping through tracking and mixing
Mackies are better but still all of the classic and I mean classic recordings and mixes that we all love WERE NOT made on those two. Big Genelecs , well maybe.
But small Mackies and Genelecs NO
Either Westlakes or Dynaudio or Tannoy or PMC not mentioning custom monirors of all kinds.
This is poor mans pro debate which can last forever
If You have pro studio You know what You need
If You work semi pro or home recording get what You like and what does not maka havoc in Your not so tuned rooms

And best of all good songs will sound good even on bad monitors
Bad songs (95% of music receorded) has to be polished to sell
Go back to old Beatles pictures in studio and see what they had at the time

[Ernest828]

This is poor mans pro debate which can last forever
If You have pro studio You know what You need
If You work semi pro or home recording get what You like and what does not maka havoc in Your not so tuned rooms

Yup, this is a debate that won`t go away simply because so many are writing and recording sub par songs. I am one of those who feel that it doesn`t really matter what monitors you use, even though I have and will spend thousands getting monitors I like to listen to. However, with that said I own two pairs of consumer monitors from Radio Shack that do their job.

You are correct with you example of the Beatles. Their monitors were not anything near what we have today and if I`m not mistaken, the rooms they mixed in were not treated. If anything they were mixing in mono on those earlier albums and that is partly the reason for the great isloation of instruments. They did this with EQ and less so with panning (even though that was used too).

Ahhh, the endless thread... going strong after two years...

Ernest

[helicopter]

Ah the Beatles
You got me there
Did You know that the old EMI mixers used for Beatles recordings actually had EQ?
Well it was a two way switch with up and down position
Up had letter POP
Down had letters CLASSICAL

[atma]

anyone have/use those sigmas? i've read interesting reviews about them, but haven't heard much feedback about them from actual users.. just curious.

[Vajeeta]

I have the PS-6's and they do quite a good job for me. I record and write Metal, Hip Hop and R&B/Neo-Soul music mostly. my mixing enviroment isn't great (it's just a big basement) but I have added acoustic foam to key areas(the cheap stuff). But theb very first chance I get The 824's are mine! Tho I'm a little biased on the genelecs (1029A's, 1031's and 1032's) I've listened to them in a couple studios and would cut off my pinky for them(not literally). I also tested the 824's and I must say for the price I have to have them. Unless someone wants to give me some 1031's for the price of the 824's I'm buying the 824's. No Doubt.

[Ernest828]

Hey Vajeeta,

I agree. The Genelecs are great, especially the 32s. At $4gs for a pair though, the 824s are a bargain. I`ve worked with the Gen 32s and later purchased the 824s. To my ear, the 824s are very clinical. Sometimes I prefer the veil the 32s offer.

After mixing with the 824s for the last 4 years, I`ve grown accustomed to them and get good mixes.
Monitors are very subjective, there is no BEST MONITOR for everyone. Get something you can use on just about everything and just keep working with them. Eventually you learn what needs to be cut/boasted, etc...

In my studio there is a slight boast in the 100hz region. Before I realized this I had mixes that lacked in Kick drum. I was hearing enough of it mixing but when I listened in other environments, there was hardly any kick. My point is that the 824s did not give me a perfect balance because my room was not perfect. No matter how much you pay for monitors, if the room is not properly balanced, the mixes will be blemished, no matter the monitor.

Peace,
Ernest

[Vajeeta]

I fully agree, monitors are totally subjective. For instance, I have a pair of control 5's. I'd used them for 8 years to mix on and knew them very well. I can to this day get good mixes that translate well on them. just figured it's time to up date. But yeah soon as my account allows I'm grabbing those 824's heh

[Hynek]

Originally posted by alphajerk
monsoon flat panels with sub

And is that still considered nearfield monitors?

Just not sure if it should. Actually I would not say so.

[jas]

I agree with most of what I have been reading on this topic. Here is what I've been reading:

1. When comparing Near Fields, you must first categorize by $$$; i.e., Adams, Genelec, etc.

2. Now that you've categorized you can make an Apples-To-Apples comparison.

3. There are critical variables when comparing; such as,
a) the total chain from musician/vocalist, to microphone, to
processing, to recording media, to mix, I think you know what I am
aiming at.

Try recording a poor guitarist with a great guitar/sytem, no speaker
in the world will make that performance sound better. Record a
great guitarist on a mediocre guitar/system and you'll have a lot of
good stuff to mix.

b) your room, I won't say much more.

c) your hearing. No matter how great the specs on your monitors, if
your hearing is deficient in range anywhere within the spectrum,
you need a set of ears. Have you ever tried to mix with tired ears?

d) when comparing your mixes on other systems, make sure the other
system is worthy of listening to. How does commercial stuff sound
on that system? I always have a hard time playing my latest tune
for my parents on their 1970's state of the art system. Hell, I
remember music didn't sound good on that system when I was
living at home in 1971.

I love Sweetwater's Forum. I've stated this many times in other posts...there is way too much eletism going on. Adams, Genelec, Manley, Neuman, etc., I know this is your very first system...come on, now.

Don't ya just love this business called music?

jas

[Felix]

Has anyone else checked out this new Drive Rack Studio? Sounds pretty cool - I mean, you can take your existing monitors and make them sound like multiple sets of monitors. This could be pretty cool, especially for those of us who don't have the room (or the money) for tons of monitors.

As for making sure the room isn't affecting your mix, it analyzes your room too (just like the Drive Rack PA).

Anyway, just sounds like once you pick out which monitors you're going to go with, one of these will make sure you get the most from them.

[Alexander]

I just heard the Drive Rack Studio a few days ago very extensively.

I was skeptical going in having mixed on several of the speakers it apparantly is able to "sound like".
I was actually pleased with how well it imposed the sonic signature of the speaker size (ie:Auratone, NS10, phone etc) over whatever speaker it was being used with. I heard this being used on Genelec 1032's, Mackie HR824's and Tannoy Reveal Actives. (They were each connected to the back of the DriveRackStudio as it is also a speaker switcher or you can use an output to go to a recording deck etc.)

This is going to be nice because now it will be very easy to approximate what what a mix will sound like through various speaker systems. I especially liked the sub effect which it creates through the sub harmonic synth. The sub effect worked well on whatever speakers it was being used with.

I create multimedia at home and it is nice to think that I can quickly see what my mix will sound like on TV and computer size speakers through my HR824's!

[Vajeeta]

Where can I find one of these at to read more about it and see it? also what is the $$$ amount on one?

[Alexander]

You are close enough to Sweetwater to come and see and listen to it here if you would like. You can listen to the same set up we did if you would like.

You can also find out more about it, pricing etc at
http://www.sweetwater.com/feature/driverack/

feel free to call or email me if you have more ?'s.

[Vajeeta]

I think I'm like 3 hours away from you guys. Chicago.

[jas]

Why would you add an equalizer to the chain? Why not treat the room? How will using an RTA and tuning the control room with an EQ compensate for a poor recording/mixing environment? Somebody please explain this rational.

jas

[Alexander]

Having been involved in the design of several studios/control rooms, the biggest misconception is that you can treat and acoustically 'tune' or neutralize a room for $300 $800 or even $2000+ .
While these lower cost approaches may reduce the biggest culprits like comb filtering, flutter echo and to some degree standing waves etc, it costs a lot more to actually create a neutral environment that doesn't adversely affect/color what is coming from the monitors than the less effective but much less expensive high end parametric EQ. Even the biggest studios have many times had to go to an EQ in the line for corrective measures even after spending thousands on treatment, but even the most surgical parametric EQ's will not override the physics of nodes and modes in a room. (more on this later if you would like)
Foam and other types of acoustical treatments that physically change the rooms wall surface/structure etc if used properly can have more effect than EQ but generally speaking the cost involved is quite prohibitive when most studios total equipment value is less than the $5000 plus range that just begins to provide a neutral environment. Don't get me wrong, Auralex and similar companies are great when you are inexpensively trying to treat an existing room, but foam products are nothing more than broad band absorption which is not the same as creating/designing the architecture of a room to provide a non coloring environment sepcifically in the mix position. Make sense?

The real deal with the DriveRackStudio however is not that it will magically tune your room, but it's nice to know that it provides significant tools for someone who really was just hoping to hear their mix through the sonic signature of a different size monitor than what they already own, while at the same time being able to reduce the destructive color the room is imposing on the sound. These are two completely sepparate issues not to be confused as one.

In other words... spend money on various speakers and stands and acoustic treatment and maybe even an EQ and on a speaker switcher...or check out the DriveRackStudio after spending as much as possible on acoustic treatment for your room.

[jas]

Alexander,

I am interested. What would the signal path look like on a VS-2480?

2480>driverack>monitors?

What if I wanted to do a scratch mix on to cassette? Would the signal path look like 2480>cassette>driverack>monitors?

Thanks,

jas

[Alexander]

It will actually be the same basic set up each time.

Main L/R out of your main recording device or mixer > Input L/R of DriveRackStudio > output (#1) of DriveRackStudio L/R to input of powered monitors or poweramp with connected monitors as the case may be.

If you are wanting to 'split' the stereo signal going to your monitors to a cassette deck then use the same set up as above, but send the output L/R of output (#2) on back of the DriveRackStudio to the input L/R of the Cassette deck. (the outputs on the back of the DriveRackStudio can go to speakers exclusively or to 2trk recording devices or other depending on the need. All 3 outputs on the back can be active at the same time which is why this is possible.)

If this isn't clear I'll give it another go.

[DAS]

oops, sorry, browser problems

[guitarjoe]

Wish I wouldn't have read this - dude needs to stop spending his mom's money

[dilvie]

Originally posted by djstatik
I started out using JBL monitors, the "budda" looking ones with the woofer hump (4604?). These monitors sounded great. All of my music rocked on these monitors. Unfortunately, the mixes sounded like absolute crap everywhere else. Too much bass, too much treble, and little midrange.

I then went with the flow and bought Yamaha NS-10s. Every studio in the world can't be wrong, right? I have to admit, my mixes have gotten better, if only because if you can make them sound good on these terrible speakers it will sound good everywhere. The big problem I have with these is mainly ear fatigue due to the horrible sound and no bass. I write dance music. I NEED BASS!

I'd like to see some real world responses of what people are using that is working well for them. I'm particularly interested in the Mackie HR824 series if anyone owns these.

Thanks,
Scott:confused:

NS-10's are crap. They were never meant to be used as anybody's primary monitor mix. The reason they became so popular is that they're fairly representative of popular bookshelf speaker systems that a lot of consumers listen to music on.

The quick answer to your question is that there really isn't any right answer. A pair of the best monitors in the world will sound like crap if they're not set up properly in a well treated room (that doesn't mean over-treated ... just well treated).

Learning how to set up your monitoring environment is just as important as getting the right pair of monitors for your situation.

BTW, since you're doing dance music, which is often listenned to on huge systems with huge subwoofers, it's probably a good idea to get a sub-woofer, no matter which near-field monitors you opt for. NONE of them deliver the range you're looking for -- not even if you spend a couple thousand bucks. Get a sub. =) Preferably a sub designed to accompany the near-field monitors you intend to buy.

- Eric

[Alexander]

I agree with the idea of needing a speaker (sub in this case) which lets you know what you've got in the lower end of your dance mix.
When you see a film going through its final mix stage, you'll notice they actually mix in a studio that is built to the look and size of a real movie theater. This is because they want to mix the sound to match the environment they are intending it to be heard in. Likewise, see if you can get a local dance club to let you play a couple mixes on their system from time to time on some morning or afternoon when they are off peak hours.
Even with a sub in your room which will help, you really need to see how the mix will breathe in a room. Who knows, maybe they'll like your stuff so much that you get a gig out of it. On the otherhand, if they don't like your stuff it could be death to your career. =) ...so maybe play them on the system the first few times before the boss gets there.

[Curt Darnell]

I have the Tannoy 6.5 pwrd. in my Project Studio and they work great! :smokin:

[Keniko]

I'm considering Adam A7's over the Mackie 824's,JBL4328P's and the Event Precision 8's. The Adams came highly reccommended from my Sweetwater sales rep. Any comments?

[Psykostx]

careful with anything from hafler... their amps leave a lot to be desired for. they are really punchy but not so musical sounding.


OK NOW I KNOW ALPHAJERK IS A GOOD ENGINEER!!! Listen up, DON'T BELIEVE THE MARKETING CRAPOLA!!! He is 100% CORRECT! THE AUDIO INDUSTRY IS FULL OF LYING SACKS OF DOO-DOO (my buddy just released an album and he used "binaural tones" to make it sound better ...WELL IF YOU BELIEVE THAT BINAURAL TONES ARE ANYTHING SPECIAL, THEN YOU'RE AN IDIOT. BINAURAL TONES = STEREO!) The Nazi Party in WW2 Germany had less LIARS than the Gear Selling Scam industry. If its under $1000 its TOTAL CRAP. If its under $5k, then its all good except ONE THING IS MISSING, EITHER BASS, LOW DISTORTION IN THE MIDS(HAFLER), PUNCH, MIDRANGE, WHATEVER...FILL IN YOUR TASTE. You can build better speakers out of car stereo parts than you can BUY for under $1000. If it doesn't sound amazingly different on every CD you put in, its CRAP! CRAP is what they sell to CHEAPSKATES who think they can get away with SUCKING at life while saving money. IF YOU ARE CHEAP YOU ARE EASILY SCAMMED.
Want proof? Build a SUBWOOFER ENCLOSURE from 3/4" Plywood and load it with a $80 Sony XPLOD. Then build a 2 layer box (3/4" glued to 5/8" and use A LOT of glue to seal it PERFECTLY, with braces and a contoured front panel...be sure to give it the proper airspace that specs require. Now. Play music through it. The flimsy crap box (which isn't really noticeably flimsy) will severely lack a flat response, and have no punch. The super-box (which should weigh close to 50-100lbs with the sub inside) will have a PERFECT frequency response and will go down to about 10hz no matter what the specs say, and how much louder is it with the same power? About a million times! The point is, good sound comes from AIR MASS moving agains DEAD MASS. The more MASS, the LESS COLORATION OF THE SOUND. The amplifier and cone are really very-very secondary as long as the impedance and power handling are matched! TRUST I'VE BUILT A LOT OF THESE, THE CHEAPER THE SUB, THE BETTER, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE! BRACING + MASS + GOOD SEAL = BEST POSSIBLE SPEAKER!

EVEN PRO'S GET SCAMMED BY THIS NONSENSE... BUT I GUESS I KNOW NOTHING...DON'T LISTEN TO ME, JUST KEEP MAKING DIRTBAGS RICH WHILE YOU SPEND SPEND SPEND YOUR LIFE AWAY!

THE ADAM'S ARE DEFINITELY 100% BETTER BECAUSE 1)YOU COULD CRUSH YOUR FOOT IF YOU DROPPED ONE ON IT, 2)THE TWEETER IS FAR SUPERIOR BY ITS PHYSICAL NATURE BEING A RIBBON... RIBBONS RESPOND BETTER IN A MAGNETIC FIELD DISTORTION WISE (a dome tweeter changes shape drastically, while a ribbon moves back and forth uniformly), ITS A FACT and 3) THEY ARE WAY CHEAPER THAN THE CRAPPY RIPOFF ALTERNATIVES 4) MONITORS ARE NOT AN OPINION...THAT IS THE BIGGEST HOAX THE INDUSTRY CAN OFFER...if CD's don't sound DRASTICALLY different, YOUR MONITORS SUCK A-HOLE!

As to the original post, NS-10's are the BEST you mention, not for their EQ response which could melt a witch, but for matching the dynamics of various instruments...ie Kick Should PUNCH, bass should THROB, Guitar should WASH, and vocals should be OMNIPRESENT. The crappy enclosure is their downfall however, rolling off the lows way to far up the spectrum. The only reason they punch the way they do is because they are SEALED. Anything with a round PORT is GARBAGE! Anything with a dome tweeter that is not reinforced by rigid metal is GARBAGE! MASS MASS MASS MASS............. BUILD YOUR OWN SPEAKERS BEFORE YOU BUY SOME, YOU WILL BE SURPRISED HOW MUCH BETTER THEY ARE THAN ANYTHING ON A BUDGET LEVEL..... DO YOU THINK THE PRO'S WANT YOU TO MIX AS WELL AS THEM WITHOUT GETTIN PAID??? HELL NO! AND NEITHER DO I, SO DON'T BELIEVE ME!;)

PS: Before you go knocking me for saying the ADAM S3A's are the best then saying round ports suck, read my post more carefully.......a pair of S3A's is $5000.... didn't I say there would be something missing/wrong... THERE HAS TO BE! OTHERWISE YOU WOULDN'T BUY THE NEXT MODEL UP (WHICH SWEETWATER DOESN'T EVEN CARRY). This is classic BAIT N SWITCH... if you think I'm bitter... YOU ARE F'ING RIGHT! You know how many times these retailers pass B-Stock SHIITE off to you...BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER... if there is SO MUCH AS A MICRO-SCRATCH OR FINGERPRINT ON SOMEHTING, SEND IT BACK! Something doesn't sound quite right?? ITS BECAUSE IT ISN'T, YOU WERE JUSTT PASSED THE BOTTOM OF THE PRODUCTION LINE! LIKE I SAID, THE PEOPLE WHO SPEND THE MONEY, GET THE GOOD STUFF...SO START BUILDING IT YOURSELF, AND SAY "SCREW ME? NO SCREW YOU!"

[Psykostx]

I'm considering Adam A7's over the Mackie 824's,JBL4328P's and the Event Precision 8's. The Adams came highly reccommended from my Sweetwater sales rep. Any comments?


No surprise here, Sweetwater was the first authorized ADAM dealer that I am aware of... in fact they were reccommended to me even when I was looking for headphones lol.. just like when you go to Guitar Center you HAVE to buy M-Audio or MXL Mics or a Schecter...even if you wanted something else.... in hard economy you can't be soft... say no to BAIT N SWITCH! LISTEN TO THE GEAR YOU ARE INTERESTED IN. IF YOU LIKE IT, BUY IT, WHETHER IT IS 2 cents or $200k......screw the salesman, screw the marketing, THEY ARE A USELESS PART OF THE CHAIN, AND OFTEN THE BIGGEST DETRIMENT. USE YOUR EARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The ADAM's are definitely the nicest thing sweetwater has for monitors besides dynaudio, so if you like it here, then buy those! I would check out a set of Paradigm Reference Studio series at your local high end retailer...

REMEMBER...EARS! IF YOU MAIL ORDER MONITORS (OR ANYTHING ELSE) WITHOUT HEARING THEM, YOU ARE QUITE LITERALLY A RETARD!:banana:

[Psykostx]

Ahahaha I Knew It You Censoring Bastards! You Just Lost A Customer You Sickos!

EDIT....THEN THEY REPOSTED, INTERESTING, WHY NOT JUST REMOVE THIS POST TOO...HMM NOW YOU TRY AND DISCREDIT ME? NO I'M JUST PARANOID AND WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING...JUST A RICH ECCENTRIC WHO HAPPENS TO HAVE STUDIED THE VOLUME OF KNOWLEDGE CONTAINED IN THE LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA......... WE NEVER DEFEATED THE NAZI'S, JUST ADOLPH, THEIR POOR STOOGE. YOU THINK EUROPE IS ALL THEY WANTED? THEY WON'T STOP RAPING SO LONG AS YOU ENJOY IT! THEN WHEN YOU CATCH ON AND STOP BUYING THE OBSCENELY MARKED UP CRAP, THEY DUMP YOU IN THE GUTTER...

[Psykostx]

[QUOTE=Psykostx]Ahahaha I Knew It You Censoring Bastards! You Just Lost A Customer You Sickos![QUOTE]


Yes I am crazy, and yes I am no longer a loyal customer of any superstore. Don't listen to me, buy everything you can while you can. SHUT UP AND BUY! Don't experiment....don't build your own stuff...JUST BUY WHAT THE FORUM TELLS YOU AND YOU WILL BE HAPPY...ETERNAL LIFE WILL BE YOURS IF YOU ONLY BUY IT! GOD ONLY WANTS YOU TO BE HAPPY IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT!

LIKE I SAID I AM CRAZY....FOR CAPS LOCK! lol

[JeffBarnett]

a pair of S3A's is $5000.... didn't I say there would be something missing/wrong... THERE HAS TO BE! OTHERWISE YOU WOULDN'T BUY THE NEXT MODEL UP (WHICH SWEETWATER DOESN'T EVEN CARRY). This is classic BAIT N SWITCH... if you think I'm bitter... YOU ARE F'ING RIGHT! You know how many times these retailers pass B-Stock SHIITE off to you...

Just as a point of clarification... This is a very old thread. At the time the original poster started it, we had access to the entire ADAM product line, all the way up to the $30,000+ mastering monitors.

We do occasionally have b-stock or demo items for sale, but they will always be identified as such. We will never knowingly ship a b-stock product out the door and claim it is anything but b-stock. If you have experienced something that you would consider "bait and switch," please let us know right away because we want to make it right.

[Psykostx]

Yes Jeff I did realize that you dropped the ADAM line. Also I am not neccessarily mad at Sweetwater, more monitor manufacturers (I just don't like how Sweetwater plays along just because it is VERY profitable)! I feel that manufacturers put a real scam on the consumer by even offering low grade "speakers" as monitors! They should stick to real monitors...let Alesis make the fake ones. Tannoy has no business in the consumer business, real Tannoys are SOOOO good! I apologize if I came off as being angry and rude (well I was at the time), but this is a heated subject for me, I see GuitarCenter passing absolute garbage off as "studio monitors" and it makes me furious (its also funny watching people buy them without even listening!) Also I had been sent a B-Stock item instead of the item I ordered, but that has since been resolved so I no longer have quarrel with you, good sir!

That said, I definitely agree with alphajerk that you should own a pair of the WORST speakers you can find, sometimes they can be INCREDIBLY revealing! It is the fact that manufacturers pass something I would flush down the toilet if I could, as "monitors", when really they are bookshelf speakers, and poor ones at that. Why can't they just call them bookshelf speakers? I mean a Squier Strat is NOT a Strat (I will only accept disagreement from someone without fingers or ears), at least they differentiate...Alesis Monitor Ones, and Tannoy Reveal (EXACTLY WHAT THEY DON'T DO) are BOOKSHELF SPEAKERS...all hype. Also, what's up with all these ported speakers...if its ported, it can't be accurate...period. Ports add resonance, which always defeats impulse response and reduces dynamic range...two BIG no-nos in a studio monitor!

PS: Sweetwater is always my go-to because of service and quality...don't let the economy run you down. Don't be afraid to drop the LOW END manufacturers. GuitarCenter is the laughing stock of the music community, it has been reduced to a toy-store. I would hate to see sweetwater try and compete with a toy-store. I consider GuitarCenter to be the Wal-Mart of music...they have all the lowest end from every manufacturer...I wouldn't buy anything there but strings and drumheads! Why even put yourself on the same level as them by selling the same stock of monitors...you could totally put them under by adopting my stance and taking the high road! :bounce:

EDIT: Also, I would look into stealing the Ultrasone PRO line from their stock if you can (THEY ARE AMAZING!) and grab up Prism (the Orpheus is incredible) and Lavry converters, and if you can Barefoot Monitors (they only make ONE monitor, and its THAT good...if you were blindfolded, you wouldn't know if it was speakers or a band, they are SO LOUD and CLEAR throughout the ENTIRE audible band). I don't own this stuff, but I have the privelage of having a rich neighbor who is an audiophile and I also go to studios all the time! People will buy these things because they are UNMATCHED! I do own a nice Luxman LV-103 Stereo Reciever and I can say that NOTHING CONSUMER HAS COME CLOSE TO THIS THING'S SOUND QUALITY AT ITS PRICE (well under $1000) that I have heard IN OVER 15 YEARS! Too bad they don't make 'em like they used to....

[michaelhoddy]

What all just happened here?

[JeffBarnett]

If you figure it out, let me know, okay?

[Psykostx]

lol what did you expect, its a post about monitors. Its almost a more emotional subject than George Bush's presidency with most people!