Current state of Radikal SAC-2K and DP3

[SteveFortner]

The subject line says it all. What is the current state of integration between Radikal's control surface and MOTU Digital Performer 3? I know it supposedly works better with this program than with anything else (Logic, etc). Is the USB functionality a reality yet? Or must we still use the MIDI ports?

Also, any inside poop on when we'll see the Tascam DM-24, which for the $ I'm considering for my main front end. It pooped up on their website.

[alphajerk]

when i was at NAMM a few weeks ago, Radikal said it didnt work yet with DP3, in fact they were demoing it with 2.72 [which due to a tempermental machine, crashed frequently] they said the fix was coming very quickly though. might work now.

usb connection wont make any difference in fader resolution although im wondering how it will affect latency. apparently someone is on the case rewriting the usb driver and on the way sometime.

unfortunately a lot of functions i would like at a buttons push isnt available with the SAC2K, maybe with the new remote control menu in DP3 it could be programmed but other things could not.

[Kenny Bergle]

I will be trying this out at my place soon. The fact remains that *any* controller info can be mapped into DP and then a controller profile can be made by the user and saved either into a template or a remote controller profile that could be loaded into a new DP file. It just takes time (and know-how). To say that the SAC2k *doen not* work with DP3 means to say that one hasn't done the work to create a controller profile for it (which any user can do). It is more accurate to say that the SAC2K profile is not yet completed. I have several friends who have put the profile together to meed their needs. That's what's so cool about DP and the SAC2K. You can configure both to be what you want/need them to be.

To clarify, out of the box, the SAC2K DOES work as a MIDI volume/pan/mute controller for DP (ver 2.4 and up). There are buttons/controllers on the SAC2K that DP does not have a ready-made instant profile for... And the "hand-shaking" routine that sucks out controller requirements from the computer sequencer it is hooked up to is not fully functional yet (but as in the above paragraph that does not limit a user from creating one).

If anybody out there has one with more controller info (and btw it does work fine under the HUI profile) please let us know if it's available somewhere for download for this Forum's users... Thanks!

[David Klausner]

Hello Steve,

We will be getting a chance to check out a prototype of the DM24 next week, and after that, we should have a better idea of both its capabilities and when we might expect production models. You may want to give me a call when you get a chance about the Roland VM7200 digital mixing system, however. We are running some tremendous specials on them right now, and they are currently available and represent proven technology.

[SteveFortner]

Thanks, guys, for the replies. The handshaking routine is what I'm waiting for with the Radikal. Apparently it's not yet functional with quite a few DAW programs. Given that this was one of the most-buzzed features in their promo materials, it gives the impression that what we have is still a beta product.

The Roland? Don't know much about it. Feel free to send me an email, Dave.

[alphajerk]

no offense kenny but with todays technology we dont want to "do the work", it should be totally plug and play. of course you can create it yourself but who has time to do that... not to mention limitations using a controller in that fashion.

im still curious about the JL Cooper MCS3800 and the beta driver for use with DP. you all sell this product dont you? has anyone tested it out with DP yet? the beta has been out for a year now... what exactly is going on with it? this controller looks to be more promising than the SAC2K which i was quite disappointed with... have you all compared these two?

what do you feel is the BEST controller to be teamed up with DP at this point in the game?

[DAS]

Alpha - I agree with your point in full, but I do think it is a bit idealistic for many situations. What do we really have that is truly plug-and-play? There are always issues and things you need to do - some more than others. Again, I agree with you, I just think the point needs to be qualified a bit.

Here's an interesting hypothetical:

Two controllers are available: controller A requires 3 man days of setup and tweaking, but then works fine for years. Controller B is "plug-and-play." Controller A costs $995, controller B costs $1995. Assuming all other things are more or less equal (both suitable for the job, etc.) which one are you going to buy?


Given that this is hypothetical it's by definition an unfair question (all other things are never equal), but I don't think (based on my years in this business) it's as off the mark as it may appear. The question may imply that I'm suggesting there is a right or wrong answer, but I am not. It's just food for thought.

[alphajerk]

a few tweaks are always a given with anything no matter how plug and play it is. but having to entirely map out a device i would gladly pay the $1k extra of your hypothetical situation.

the problem i see [catch22 maybe] is that the controller manufacturers [wisely? maybe] are making generic controllers that are able to be used over various programs but it comes down to the jack of many trades, master on none. which is sort of unacceptable [in my book] when i am trying to have a MASTER controller for the one APP i use [DP], i really have no reason to use any other.

personally i feel that these DAW software companies are just putting out so much more advanced music production tools than any million dollar boat anchor was ever capable of, the automation on those things is horrible at best. so all these companies have done it backwards, software/logic first, hands on control second. now its linking the two together.

digidesign did it first but even the proControl is pretty crappily built for the money they charge. feels more like a toy than something of substance. the sony dmxr100 has a nice feel to it but the software blows on it, the freakin panasonic da7 has better software for a LOT less $$$ but the hardware part is weak.

it seems as if something is ALWAYS compromised... i could go on with this dichotomy. part of it is wanting the future now, part of it is sick of the past.

but now i am rambling.

[SteveFortner]

The amount of work I'm willing to do depends on what the product is supposed to do. Let's say I pick up a digital mixer, like the Roland or new Tascam. Given that I'm getting I/O, monitoring, and DSP for my money, it seems reasonable to have to write a controller template so I can control faders, mutes, sends, etc, in my favorite software.

But in the case of the Radikal, it was specifically advertised to change all that, heck, a year ago. You plug it in via USB, it says "Hi, I'm the SAC-2K" and your software says "Whazzup! I'm Digital Performer" (or Logic etc). They then know exactly how to work together. This is why I considered paying $1500 - $1800 for something that doesn't even have I/O or a center section. I then got my hands on one and its use (with DP 2.72) was kludgey at best. The USB handshaking wasn't happening... it was just another FreeMIDI device.

Here's a perspective on the DAW companies "getting it backwards." It's a lot less capital-intensive to write code than it is to manufacture things out of wood, metal, and plastic with knobs and faders outside and circuits inside. Arguably, this is the major factor that allowed the computer-based project studio to come so far. Not too many years ago, the under-funded and envious (i.e. most of us here) collectively went "F--k big fader boards! If I can have 24 tracks with automated mixing and not even max out my Visa, I'll gladly talk to the system with my keyboard and mouse." Now, we've become spoiled enough to want the hands-on control and realtime response back... along with all the other advantages we've gained, and still not max out that Visa!

I'm in this category myself, so don't think I'm talking down to anyone. :D

[alphajerk]

i can agree with that but also with the DAW, i went holy begeezus look at what this thing can do and then when i got on a big board, i felt like i timewarped back into ancient kludgy times [especially when i was saving to a 8" floppy diskette... who knows where you still can buy them]

the new large frame digital's can do what im looking for but its still a LOT of money just to get a little more IMO. plus i like the recording/mixing/routing stuff in one package... the modern DAW [of which DP is by far my favorite]. then the interfaces, the dsp, the plugins/outboard can all easily be integrated with 3rd party people.

i can deal with graphical editing however if i must.

one odd thing, i find it MUCH easier to get delay times in "sync" with the music turning knobs than i can with a mouse trying to find the timing [freewheeling... not to a click track where you can actually calculate it]