WAVES WUP Vent!

[Melbguy]

Ok, pety but......

I was excited to see the new waves 6 out. Plus seeing l have the platinum bundle, yay, l get the Volmaxx plug for free, plus have some fun with what this can do. I go online to get it. NO.
Hmm, seems my WUP has expired, with NO email sent out to inform me of this. I paid about $200 just on 12 months ago(June 07). So l go to check how l can get this WUP extended. Calculates another $180.00. When l bought this l wasnt told its only a year. Kinda thought atleast a couple, surely for that price.

So no WUP, No Waves6 and no further updates. Yeah lm a little annoyed at paying that amount again. On top of buying the product etc. But l understand further development costs to get good products.
What lam annoyed about is there was no email to remind me of this. What, do l have to check up on this every so often. Most other companies in the industry and out, send you a lovely reminder on a late bill or reminder to extend a membership etc. Why cant they do this.

Plus yeah ok, it bugs me to keep this WUP membership after l have bought the product. Its not like its 10 or 20 bucks. Its a couple of hundred a year.

is it me or does it bug anyone else? Are they struggling to make cash? Whats the deal.

Im sure l will get over it...just a vent.....

I know lm contridicting here. But why only a year??? Why cant it atleast be 2 or 3 like most other companies. Im referring to WUP. I think it should be a min of 2 years, not 1. To me thats just greedy!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pfft

MG

[Tarktones]

My method of circumventing the WUP-rape is to buy something Waves and then use that first year to update everything in my system to the most up-to-date and stable configuration. Then I'll not change anything until at least a year after my WUP is expired. I'm taking a gamble that something won't break or auto-update to incompatibility during that time, but thus far I've gotten 2.5 years out of the Vocal Bundle and SSL Bundle without any hickups (the first SSL update came out about a month or two after I bought it fixing a few glitches, but other than that I haven't missed out on anything).

Now that V6 is out and I'll actually get something new (G channel) with my WUP purchase (it's going to cost me about $360 for my two small bundles). I'm putting it off until I absolutely have to and that's a process I'll repeat in the future.

If I was a bigger studio who needed to be up to date with the latest and greatest for my revolving door of clients, it'd be worth it to keep it up to date. But for little ol' me, it's not.

[Audioholic]

Just be glad you didn't get wupped a few years back, and that they capped the wup.

I am all fine with paying a little toward developement, but hundreds of dollars, please. Which is why I am phasing out waves, there are too many other good companies out there to ignore.

but at least wavs is trying to make strides to make thier crap updates a little less painful.

[Melbguy]

Yeah good idea might as well buy something from waves to get this update plan. But still you have to fork out a few hundred.
I love waves, the plugs have help me more than enough times. But hey l paid for it.
When l updated last it was to get the intel enabler as l had just got a new mac pro. Since then l have not used or needed any updates. Well there was nothing on offer. Until now - when it has expired, hmm...
So basically l paid 200 bux for an enabler. yay for me.

I would highly recommend that WUP should be atleast a min of every 2 years for that price. What once a year for an enabler???? Come on waves!!!

[Tarktones]

Well it looks like I'll be taking the plunge next week some time. I'll be upgrading to Leopard and Logic, installing PT LE7.4, so I don't have too much choice (since I can't live without my SSL Bundle). Plus at least I get a new plugin too.

The Vocal bundle, on the other hand, I'm happy to leave with WUP expired. I'll save it for a project with someone who can't sing. Even then I'll probably skip it for Melodyne 2 whenever that comes out.

[brianbfw]

i'm not looking forward to the fees of upgraded my waves studio classics. although i love them and they sounds great, it almost makes me wish i went with somebody else, ie UAD for my plugins.

if my WUP expires, my plugins will still work won't they?

i can' really seem paying all that money if nothing has really changed with the sound or functionality (i'm on waves 5.9.7). my license expires this december.

brian

[Tarktones]

Your plugins will still work, but you'll want to hold off on OS updates and things for a bit and coast in your current configuration until it's worth it to pay for WUP again because once it expires you'll no longer be able to do software updates (on the rare occasion they're released).

[Justin]

When you buy Waves plugins, you get a free year of WUP, Waves Update Plan. That means you get all the updates that come out for that year for free. That includes minor (.1, .2) and major (5.x, 6.x) updates.
Once that expires, you still have your plugins, but no free updates.

There was some backlash initially on the WUP system especially because it came out around the same time Waves moved from hard disk authorization to iLok activation, and around the same time that an OS X version change happened. Lots of people had to buy WUP to get the new iLok features to move to a new machine and OS, because their old version wasn't supported on the new hardware. At that time the price scaled based on the number of years you bought, and the price of your plugins.

Since then Waves has put a cap of $200 per year per bundle on everything.
You can only buy 1 year at a time. They also give you a credit when you buy WUP that you can apply to new plugin purchases.

It's just one of the models that is working these days.
The Waves model is a yearly subscription to get current. Since there is a $200 cap, that's not so bad if you are upgrading one of the more expensive bundles. ($200 to keep Mercury current is a good deal)

The alternative is the model where you get free minor updates, but when a new version comes out you have to buy again, or buy an expensive upgrade.

[Tarktones]

Yeah, the WUP revision last year was very welcomed. However it's frustrating to me that it's only on a per-bundle basis. If you've got a bunch of smaller bundles, you'll get raped on WUP unless you spend more upfront on a bigger bundle.

For example, I want to get the V-series in addition to my SSL bundle. V-series = $600. WUP on those 2 bundles is gonna be on the order of $300/yr. Or I could upgrade to the Studio Classics Collection for $860.63 and spend $200/yr on WUP. Within 3 years buying the bundle upgrade proves to be a money saver.

It's a frustrating but effective business tactic.

[Justin]

Yeah, sometimes it does make more sense to upgrade to the larger bundle and take advantage of getting 1 year of free WUP coverage on it.
It's an especially good deal if you can time your purchase to coincide with one of Waves' monthly discounts.
They rotate which ones are on sale each month, but most bundles are 20% off at least once or twice a year.

[brianbfw]

my 1yr period ends in december.

i've got studio classics and musiciand bundle.

i read on the waves site you can upgrade from whatever version you have, so can i just wait and few years and upgrade then? maybe do an upgrade every few years.

the main thing i'm concerned about is bugs in the software, which there really isn't any. i can 't see them doing much more things to the sound of the EQ's and compressors.

[Tarktones]

The only time you're gonna come across bugs in Waves' stuff is when it's first released and if you buy it then you've got coverage for a year which is certainly enough time for them to fix the bugs. I will say that their stuff is remarkably stable; I've never had a glitch.

[brianbfw]

and the sound and the look of the interface. i'm really suprized the soudn i'm getting from my mixes. it's fun to fill up the screen with the Echannel and pretend i'm sitting in front of a real SSL.

i do think the waves sound better then there competitors (UAD, URS).

but it will probably be my only waves bundle purchase. I might consider the JJP, if it gets good reviews.

the WUP is going to limit my waves purchases. i don't like the license fees.

[Tarktones]

Definitely. I mean, I do feel strongly that Waves makes some of the best audio processing software in the world. Truly they do. It sounds amazing, it looks amazing, it's stable and, as much as people like to complain about them being expensive, are still much cheaper than a hardware counterpart of the same caliber.

I wouldn't even mind paying them $200/yr to keep their stuff up to date, but $200/yr/bundle is when it starts to get more than I'd like to deal with. I've got Vocal and SSL, even if I upgraded to SCC, I'd also like to get the L3 bundle and JJP. That's 4 bundles that I can't combine into anything less than Mercury. So it's about $640/yr for all 4 bundles to keep them up to date or I spend a gozillion dollars on Mercury for plugins I don't want or need.

But, you can't make EVERYONE happy either and I'm sure for owners of larger bundles, it's more convenient and that's where Waves would like us all to be as well.

[chazmuz]

Yeah, I feel the way most here do about the WUP. It's a "tad" expensive (as in BIG FREAKIN' "TAD"-POLE THAT TURNS INTO A BIG A** MUTANT KILLER BULL-FROG!!!)

So, after my recent PT8 update & my soon-to-be WUP update v.6 for my Gold Native bundle, like others I'm going with other software manufacturers and phase out my Waves stuff. No more updates for me. Gonna try the UAD stuff. I mean, $200 for a Gold Native update? C'mon... If I wanted to be sodomized with crunchy peanut butter, I'd move to San Fran. I mean, if they were developing something that is in addition to the Gold bundle I already have, that would be one thing. Offer something to make it worth our while - new presets for existing plug-ins or something. Jeesh... Instead of WUP, it should be the WTF!?! plan.

:classic: :angry: :scared:

And OH, once I tried purchasing a used Waves bundle on ebay, and some dude wrote me on ebay, obviously a paid Waves representative, gave me a freakin' run-around about how I shouldn't buy any Waves products used. This guy was ugly about it, too. It's one thing to give advice and recommend not purchasing a bundle used, but this guy was wayyy overboard. Ever since then I've been weary of the Waves does business. This will most definitely be my last update. The Waves stuff is good, no doubt, but there are other companies out there now offering stuff just as good.

Hate to be bustin' on Waves, because they offer great stuff, but I just don't appreciate the expensive WUP price, along with my bad experience with a Waves rep that obviously was getting paid to persuade me to go an alternate route. If they didn't have to pay all these world class engineers for use of their names (JJP, etc.), then maybe they probably wouldn't have to charge so much for a simple update. It's like going out and buying clothes with a name brand - you're gonna pay extra. Most of us don't mind paying a little extra, but dang, there's a fine line between updates and thievery.

[brianbfw]

i'm definitely with 'ya and hating waves. I own the studio classics (API, v-series, and SSL). There are fantastic sounding, and my mixes are really getting close to professional radio sounding.

i still have version 5.7, or the latest waves from last june. i wanted to upgrade to Lepeord but i can't without upgrading waves too. it's too much money, so i'm just going to hope for the best. i don't know how much the WUP plan would be for my set, but being it was already $1700 for the set, that's enough investment for waves for me.

i was considering the JJP set, but forget it now with the WUP.

there are alot of companies out there, so the waves monopoly on modeling gear i think may be coming to an end.

i just played around with the demos of t-racks3 and the pultec EQ sounded pretty darn good to me.

i'm done with waves.:angry:

[Smithcok]

there are alot of companies out there, so the waves monopoly on modeling gear i think may be coming to an end.


What monopoly? UA has their cards with classic gear, Focusrite has their "emulations" of classic gear, (many more), plus manufacturers are even supplying their own emulations (Duende).

Other than the $$, I thought upgrading from 5->6 was fairly easy.

IMHO, the main reasons it is any sort of a pain has to deal with
a) people steal Waves plugs like its their job (therefore making the honest people jump through more hoops)
b) they generally sound good, so people will buy them (not to say that status quo won't change as the industry progresses)

[brianbfw]

monopoly was not the right word.

outside of URS, i did not know if anybody else offering models of SSL or API. i havn't been keeping up lately, so i'm sure there's others out there by now.

i will keep my studio classics up to date, becuase i do love the sound and am already invested in it, but WUP will keep me away from other waves products.

good point about prices being high becuase of software piracy. i really hate people that steal software.

i was pretty impresed with T-racks3 that i just downloaded a demo of to get a pultec EQ.

[revert979]

I don't mean to be late to the show or anything, but I just wanted to say...

Ya know, I'm so sick of people/companies/whoever using piracy as an excuse to justify hiked up prices and/or enforce strict/expensive/invasive DRM. It's impossible to even estimate how much money a company may, or may not lose on piracy because there are absolutely NO hard numbers. And even if there were, it would be impossible to tell if those people who downloaded the software illegally would actually go out and buy the software if the means to download it illegally were not there.

This is purely observational, but people steal because they don't have money, or in some more extreme cases, because they don't want to spend the money. Taking away the ability to steal something just means they can't steal it, not that they will buy it. So the bottom line for any company remains the same. Except they just invested a whole lot of money into anti-theft security, that made them no money.

Point is, as Smithcok put it, strict/expensive/invasive DRM simply alienates the honest customer base and hurts the companies reputation. Case in point, I don't own any Waves plug-ins, and really have no desire to after reading this thread.

And for the record, I don't download pirated software :)

[Smithcok]

I think I'm definitely in the minority, but I don't think they are particularly overpriced.

:scared:

I think they sound as-good if not better than many hardware units, and you get a lot for your money. (aka many plug-ins, plus as many instances as your computer can handle)

[Rad]

:bounce: Hee, I can sense a disturbance in the force! :) :bounce:

To give Waves due credit, no doubt their stuff sounds good, including the hardware emulations. With their emulations, one can indeed work professionally.

It's an entirely different question, tho, if these well-working emulations are really the same quality, as, say, an analog compressor or EQ.

Now, I know that digital gurus claim that there's nothing in the analog realm that can't be modeled digitally as a justification, but in reality.... to model what's goin'on in an analog chain, you ve gotta sample the voltage if not at every capacitor, then at least at sufficiently high number of points inside the box. Sample amplitude, phase, frequency, etc at a large number of poins, put this together in a computational model and then you have an approximation. You heard me right, an approximation. For modeling an analog chain exactly, you need infinite number of sampling points. So, to go to the punch line: How good is a "good" approximation is a subjective decision made by the plugin designer, keeping in mind what's computationally FEASIBLE. Which means that somewhere you've gotta take a shortcut, and you cross your fingers and hope it's not audible. This is a real art, and my admiration goes to Waves for having mastered it. I think that of all things, this is really what has made them as popular as they are.
Too bad if indeed many people are giving up on these plugins for money reasons, as it sounds. Sometimes marketing can do strange things to an otherwise excellent product.

[revert979]

Yeah, but $200-$300, if not more, just to simply have your plugs work again?? That seems absurd to me. I don't believe in "subscription" fees for software. I can understand a reasonable fee to upgrade to the latest and greatest, but imagine if Microsoft or Apple started charging a fee to run the updates for your OS.

Releasing updates after you've released your software to fix bugs or glitches is part of the business, and plenty of other companies do it without charging you a fee. A fee that's in the hundreds of dollars no less.

Then on top of that I have to pay for 3rd party hardware (iLok) just to have it work in the first place?? C'mon, this is getting ridiculous.

[Rad]

I never said their marketing strategy was good... or user-friendly, to that matter. The fact that so many people here perceive it as unfair in the first place, I think, is worth their attention, regardless of whether they are right or not.

Software is a funny thing because you have an OS change or a new computer and then all of a sudden your stuff doesn't work any more. The life of plugins is short, unlike a hardware unit, and it seems natural to expect that updates will be a part of the product's lifecycle to compensate for the short longevity and adapt to new platforms.

[Smithcok]

Great points Rad^^ (and previous post)

I agree I wouldn't mind cheaper prices and different marketing for sure.

A slight tangent, but still related I guess:
Personally I couldn't give a hoot whether or not the Waves plug-ins sound like the "real" analog hardware. All I care about is that they sound good, and manipulate the audio in ways that are sonically pleasing. 95+% of the sound of an ITB mix is the operator, but I want to have the confidence that those last few percentages are filled with quality software.

When I buy a computer, I know I am going to have to do things like
- upgrade the RAM
- buy new hard drives when they fill up/crash and burn
- buy compressed air to clean it
- etc...

I view software much the same: an initial investment with additional money later for updates.

The WUP also has to keep Waves honest to a certain extent. If they are charging you $$ to keep the software current, they sure as heck better make sure its working in the specific OS. Perhaps I'm just a lemming... but paying for upgrades makes me feel better, because I know the company has a vested interest in making sure the upgrade works, and if it doesn't, they need to fix it asap.

Word.

[Rad]

Well the whole thing really boils down to the ability to pay of different customers, I guess.
Big commercial studios have no problems paying even the 9K or so for the Mercury bundle, so the WUP can't upset them in the least. For smaller studios, though, periodic cash drainages like this can be painful, especially if you're charging in the vicinity of 30$/hr. Put that way, the WUP costs you 7-8 hours of work each time you pay the WUP fees. It's like a free day of working for Waves. My guess is that because of that people really hate that plan, while to higher-paid studios it just doesn't matter.

[Smithcok]

Well the whole thing really boils down to the ability to pay of different customers, I guess.
Big commercial studios have no problems paying even the 9K or so for the Mercury bundle, so the WUP can't upset them in the least. For smaller studios, though, periodic cash drainages like this can be painful, especially if you're charging in the vicinity of 30$/hr. Put that way, the WUP costs you 7-8 hours of work each time you pay the WUP fees. It's like a free day of working for Waves. My guess is that because of that people really hate that plan, while to higher-paid studios it just doesn't matter.

Well put.
(It could already be there, and I missed it, but) Given this, perhaps Waves should do a better job of educating its customers about the usual WUP/upgrade/etc. costs when purchasing. If a studio owner could get a "typical yearly upgrade estimate" for a given bundle when purchasing, that may help them budget it.

Of course, that's a lot harder in reality, as companies will have a hard time saying "it should cost around X" and it ends up costing "Y"... so on so forth. It's at least something to ponder I guess.

[dpd]

Pretty much every software company that I deal with - outside of Microsoft - charges 20% per year for maintenance / updates. How do you expect a company to get all the necessary revenue to fund their R&D?

[Rad]

Again a disturbance in the force I sense! Unexpected this is and unfortunate. :)

I agree with DPD that you need something to finance R&D but from what I gather they're doing so at the serious risk of alienating customers. I suspect that, even though large studios are buying all their products, the largest fraction of sales actually goes to the smaller guys. There's ever so many label-owned studios in the country and the rest are people like you and me who do work for town bands and domestic Rihannas. Completely apart from the R&D issue, it just seems to me that they just shot themselves in the leg with this WUP policy. But I may be wrong.

[chazmuz]

Is it just me, or does it appear that Waves is putting out all these "artist" packages (JJP, Maserati, etc.) in order to get customers to buy pretty much the same / similar products? I mean, how many virtual channel strips, compressors and limiters do average guys like me need? I guess variety is the spice of life. But most of us can barely afford meat & potatoes, not filet minon with 5-star trimmings.

I'm just a simple, small project studio owner. Am I supposed to be overly excited about some new plug-ins that pretty much do the same thing as my other plug-ins, simply because Waves creates some new virtual channel strips based on a world-class producer who knows how to tweak hardware? It almost appears as if I'd be paying for a name, such as Polo / Ralph Lauren, Aeropostle, Harley Davidson, etc.

It seems to me like Waves is just doing this to create extra money, and it's not something that is vital to their customer base. Personally I would much prefer time and money spent on emulating a world class piece of gear, rather than emulating a few "big name" producer's individual pieces of gear and settings, and then Waves having to pay them for endorsements. Really, doesn't that make Waves look desperate? Or is it a marketing ploy that simply isn't appealing to me?

Yes, I know, I'm being overly critical...

I guess Michael Jordan is reaping the rewards of Nike "Air Jordan's", so why can't these producers make a kickback off of their success? I have no problem with that. However, considering the market we are in and the people buying these products, I just don't think Waves is that interested in the "consumer level" customer.

BUT, I will say that my current Native Gold Bundle was worth the money. I love the C4, as it's probably the best 4-band compressor / limier out there. I use it on every session. But $200 for an upgrade with a native system? That's steep in my opinion. But it's all based on supply & demand. If I didn't think the plug-ins weren't worth it, I wouldn't have paid it. It's all the extra, useless, unnecessary stuff that marginally peeves me.

:classic:

[Justin]

Is it just me, or does it appear that Waves is putting out all these "artist" packages (JJP, Maserati, etc.) in order to get customers to buy pretty much the same / similar products?


These are for the same people who used to have dozens of rack samplers / synths modules in their studios even though many had similar functions and soundsets. I heard someone call it the "bigger box of crayons" syndrome. You get to a point where no matter which size box of crayons you have, you want another shade of green that isn't in the box you have. So you upgrade to the bigger box. Then you have 48, or 64, or 128 colors, and 19 shades of green. I think some people, probably some of the really creative and successful engineers see these collections as a small expense to get a slightly different set of tools that they want.

They're not for everyone, but I think it's cool that you can buy it by itself, and they're not hitched into the Gold, Platinum, Diamond, Mercury family.

One cool thing this year was Waves listening to the users and releasing Silver. Lots of people wanted something more accessible to their budget below the Gold bundle.

[Rad]

Yes. It seemed to me that some of the plugins advertised in the Mercury bundle - for example, a guitar tuner? - are just filler. In any case I don't know of any serious guitarist who'd come to the studio without a tuner of their own.

However, this V-comp thing is great. I had a chance to try it in my friend's studio and I've gotta say it does sound very analog.

[Smithcok]

Yeah I really like the fact that they are releasing lots of different bundles.

Variety of options = good.

Yeah, maybe the name-attachment is a lot of marketing, but they sound good.

[brianbfw]

even though i have griped about waves alot in this thread, they do deliver.

i've got the studio classics and they all sound fantastic.

the only thing that sucks is that i can't upgrade to Leapard without upgrading my waves i'm told. but that's fine. Tiger works great, so i'm fine with it.

However, even though i've been considereing the JJP, i'm not going to get it because of the WUP plan. too much.

[chazmuz]

Hey, I love certain Waves plugs... I can't see myself living without the C4, but as one user mentioned, "guitar tuner" is not a perk that I would list in the Mercury bundle. Unless you can actually see the screen, which most guitarists are usually in the tracking room, then they can't see to tune unless they are in the control room looking at your monitor screen. Not a big issue, but one that usually merits attention. Usability is a key factor with anything I purchase. It's the little things that tend to spoil the party. :eek:

In other news, I'll be getting back my 002 Rack from Black Lion Audio where I had a Signature modification done. I'm VERY eager to hear if there is any sound improvement. :banana: I can clearly notice differences between 44.1K and 48K, so I'm thinking I will really like what I hear when I get the 002 back after the modification. Heck, I may even discover a new found appreciation for Waves plug-ins if I can tell better what's going on with my mixes & plug-in applications post-tracking.

I'm seriously considering a UAD-1 card, though. Yeah, I'm still running an older Mac 5, but it has served me well over these past 3-1/2+ years. I've read really good things about the UAD plugs. They (UAD) may be my next "Waves" investment and major plug-in provider. :smokin:

[brianbfw]

i was considering the JJP for the pultec type of EQ's.

but i had the demo from IKmutimedia in T-racks3 and their model of a pultec sounds pretty darn good to me. and NO WUP fees!!

the WUP is pretty much going to keep me away from waves products in the future.

[bigmoped]

I've been using Waves plugs for a while, and the policy seems fair enough.

http://www.waves.com/content.aspx?id=9416