K-system - Metering

[Melbguy]

Just seeing if anyone has worked with this system?
Mainly for radio broadcast production, producing promos etc?

Im trialing "Inspector XL" as my waves PAZ meters are just not good enough. As l have found out that they are about 3db too hard. Meaning if it was reading -12dBRMS on PAZ, it is really about -9dBRMS. Pain...

Im looking at k-12. I will read more about how to use it but just wondering how other people have come across it and used it for their work.

Cheers,
MG

[jpleong]

I use it in my work for my main meters. It really is only a "mental shift" /procedural kind of thing, not really a new technology. You're just moving the relative unity gain ("0") along a fixed scale (dBfs) for different flavors of headroom and, as a result, relative loudness.

I would suggest, if you haven't already, purchasing Mr. Katz' book "Mastering Audio" as it is a great read and goes into great detail about the K-system and using it properly (and improperly, for that matter).

JP

[Melbguy]

Thanks for the info.
Yeah l just ordered the book yesterday. I understand its not new technology. I see it as very sensible info. A standard, if you will.
I just like the fact that l have something more truthful to rely on. Rather than thinking "is it going to be too loud, too soft" etc.

Im not full-on tech savvy, so this system will work well for what l do. Still getting my head around it a bit - think lm on track:)
So l will see how my promos stack up against promos around it, this weekend. Fingers crossed.

Cheers,
MG

[dpd]

it's key that you calibrate your monitors for 83 dB SPL in your environment using a broadband -20 dBFS noise source (you can find that on Katz' web site, IIRC). Mark your master volume control at that point and then you really also need to know the gain changes for each click of the volume knob, up or down so gauge relative loudness from one of the K-System meters.

InspectorXL rules (especially when I was able to get it for $29 new :) )

[Melbguy]

ok, yeah thats the part that lm kinda working out. Still waiting for the book too.
At the moment, lm using the K-12 setting, being broadcast and trying to get my audio hitting on 0db in that particular setting.

Please correct me it im wrong on the following. My Pre-amp has 0 - 80db range on the volume control. Their is also a ref knob which is 0 to -15db(1 db steps)

does this mean l wont be able to get to 83db SPL? to test it?

Are you saying that you put the pink noise in your DAW or whatever, turn your volume (gain up) till you hit 83db on yr SPL meter? Then mark your gain knob so you dont change it. Hence calibration, or do l have it wrong?

Is that how it works....I know l should wait for my book..haha:)

[Melbguy]

Oh, $29 bucks, how? Ebay ??

[Joseph Hanna]

Just my 2 cents but..

Inspector XL is a great plug-in and I gave it a go on a system outside of work. The biggest problem I encountered was in very difficult dialog situations it was way too slow. It forced me to guess a lot. As you know in broadcast some phrases need surgical balancing and it took more time with the software than would have normally using hardware.

Dorrough Meters here in L.A. (Woodland Hills) is a great company and makes fantastic hardware meters at a reasonable cost. They are also rumored to be working on a software solution as well. My guess is if were written for TDM it might be fast enough to be useful.

Still in all I have NEVER regretted purchasing any of my Dorroughs boxes.

[Melbguy]

Thanks Joe(as always) with your info. Checked out those meters and yeah ..nice:)

But just a little out of what l wanna spend. I know you get what you pay for, not trying to cut corners.

FYI, I heard my (k-12) promo on air last night. I was worried as l have never sent out such a low, less limited promo. It cut through and was in good form with the promos around it. Also l notice (as l listen to it live via the net) it sounded less modulated.

Im a happy little vegemite!!!!(sorry - cheesy Aussie slang) :)

MG

[dpd]

Are you saying that you put the pink noise in your DAW or whatever, turn your volume (gain up) till you hit 83db on yr SPL meter? Then mark your gain knob so you dont change it. Hence calibration, or do l have it wrong?

Yup - then you count volume changes from your volume reference against whatever K-scale you use. I've done some music stuff from broadcast and I'm finding K-14 seems to work better for me. Unfortunately, I don't have a volume control with consistent resolution steps (e.g. 1 dB/step) - I'm using my Audio Research hi-fi preamp for my volume control (decided far better audio quality beats a fixed resolution attenuator any day). One day, I may be able to afford a high-end monitoring controller.

I bought a bunch of stuff from Elemental Audio (way before RND bought them) and got Inspector XL for $29 immediately after it was announced. Got Neodynium for $89, too. :) Eqium is my go-to equalizer - if you need to EQ something, Eqium can do it.

[Melbguy]

Ok, see what your thoughts are on the following.

I have done the test( l think correctly)
Set my reference knob to 0db. Had my digital sound meter in my listening position. Played the -20dbrms pink noise through, and turned up my volume knob till it reach 83db on the SPL.
Sound correct?

I wasnt freaked out by the loudest of the pink noise at the level. But if l left it there and put a cd on. Like Justin Timberlake etc. Theres no way l could listen to it that loud for a long period. The SPL read JT at between 90-102db at the k-system(83db point)
So l take it this is where the loudness war kicks in. But thats another story.

If l may u ask you this question. The term "flat -12dbRMS - what does this mean to you exactly.
To me that means a no dynamic/peak flat compressed file. But am l wrong?

[dpd]

^^^ clear out your PM's so I can reply.

If you set 0 dB at 83 dB SPL (with one speaker) then you'll have up to 20 dB of headroom on K-20, 14 dB on K-14, etc. Put on most modern stuff and your ears will be blown out - that's the loudness war at work. Even 83 dB of noise is pretty darn loud.

I'm not sure what you are asking about 'flat -12 dB RMS'

[Melbguy]

should be fine now, cleared out some messages:)

[Melbguy]

Actaully l take it to mean ( K-system) to be more of a delivery system requirement.
Hence say, using k-12 or k-14 to get your levels ready before you give it to a radio station or mastering engineer. So it leaves them more headroom too master or smash the crap out of(Optimod). Rather than having your glass filled to the top with no room, but to spill, or in audio terms "turn down"

??

MG

[jpleong]

The only problem I have with it is releasing a final product made utilizing the K-System and then trying to explain why your mix is so "quiet" to someone who doesn't understand. I wish there was a "K-System Certified" logo or something I could stick on to all my mixes so I don't have to spend half an hour explaining the loudness war.

JP

[Tarktones]

You can do exactly that!

http://turnmeup.org/

[Melbguy]

Interesting link, interesting articles...