Best X/Y mics for acoustic guitar [Archive]

michaelhoddy

03-02-2008, 12:17 PM

I won't say much about the KM184's (do a search on the forum if you want), but if you're shopping in that price range, you should check these out:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MA100SP/

Really, there's a lot of good options available. Shure KSM-137's, Audio-Technica 4041's or 4051's, and a bunch of others which I'm sure other people will chime in with. All of which are worthy contenders.

Tarktones

03-02-2008, 12:56 PM

I haven't tried the MA100's but I'm so fond of my MA200 that I can vouch for the quality of the Mojave microphones. I also really like the AT4051's. I think they're pretty great too.

robby

03-02-2008, 05:06 PM

Thanks guys, so you think those Mojave's are a better choice than the Neumans?

As another alternative, I currently have a U87AI, and was "considering" one of these, http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TLM193

And then doing an X/Y with my U87AI and the TLM193. Thoughts?

Tarktones

03-02-2008, 07:32 PM

Well, I wouldn't say better. I've not used the MA100's and I've never used anything from Neumann's KM series.

But I'd discourage the XY with with mis-matched microphones. The idea is that they're identical mics; while the U87 and the TLM193 are both awesome and I'm sure it'll sound fine in the end, you'll end up with inconsistent frequency response across the stereo field. Of course, I've done a mis-matched spaced pair on acoustic, but it really wasn't as much a "spaced pair" for a stereo sound as much as it was the equivalent of throwing up a 57 and a 421 on a guitar cab and panning them separately just to get the right tone. It creates a stereo sound, but it's not a true stereo recording. You know?

michaelhoddy

03-03-2008, 07:04 AM

Pure speculation, but given the sheer goodness of the MA-200, the fact that I'm simply not blown away with the KM184 (and yes, I used to own a pair), and the fact that Dave Royer appears to be channeling the vintage KM54 and KM84 with the MA100, there's a very strong chance that the MA100's will steal the KM184's lunch money and leave them crying on the playground.

My personal choice for acoustic is a mismatched pair based around some combination of a KM84 (not 184), ELUX251, U195, or AT4041. I don't do pop acoustic guitar in X-Y.

For the money, I feel the 184 is overrated. If they were $300 each, I'd feel differently.

robby

03-03-2008, 05:38 PM

Tarktones

03-03-2008, 06:14 PM

Mmmm... they're on my hit list. Have fun with them and please do share your impressions.

jpleong

03-08-2008, 12:02 PM

Rad

03-08-2008, 12:39 PM

I've heard the KM184's only in concert, so you should discount my opinion somewhat, but I think I will side with Michael.
To me they sound very detailed, and very good mics overall, but at that price point they do face a lot of competition from similar or lower-priced condensers that sound no worse. I'm also a bit surprised that a 850$ mic like this comes in a carton-box, as opposed to a case or even a wooden box. Just to make a point, the similarly priced 414s, for example, come with foam-padded solid metal case, individual mic pouch, shock mount, pop filter, windscreen, tread adapter, 50-page manual, and individual frequency response chart of that particular mic, signed by an AKG official. As michael says, if it was a 300-dollar mic, one could say, well, to have that price I understand they had to cut corners with the packaging etc. For an almost 900-$ mic, this argument is a bit difficult to make. I think I also cast my vote in favor of the MA-100.

Rad

03-08-2008, 02:30 PM

I actually think the C414's new aluminum flight case is crap -it's more style than function as it doesn't seal well. The little pouches are cute, though.

I also like the C414 on acoustic guitar.

Strange... I've never had a problem with the case closing tightly either on this or on other AKG mics (such as the SolidTube). But anyway, my point was not so much to recommend the 414 for acoustic guitars as to point out that at this price, it seems standard to get at least a few extras.

staylor

03-14-2008, 08:31 PM

I used a stereo pair of KM184s on a past project and got a great sound! I noticed, however, that the sound of the 184s were at there best when the guitar was being playing in the key of G on the lower end of the neck (the sound was beautifully smooth!).

That being said, my mic's of choice for XY'ing are the AKG 451s. They seem to deliver a great sound consistently.

-ST

jmit01

03-15-2008, 01:51 AM

As you may already know, mic choices are very subjective. It just might be easier to ask 'which mics should I never use on acoustic guitar ?'

So, to add my 2 cents...I've had excellent results recording acoustic classical guitar (with nylon strings) using a single DPA 4006-TL, paired with a Great River MP-2NV preamp. Haven't tried two of them in a stereo configuration yet. Pricey mics, but they definitely sound great !

Ted

03-15-2008, 11:42 AM

...hmmm... seems the forum's order is messed up a little bit.
I think it was an issue related to the Daylight Savings time change...all should be well now.

Rad

03-17-2008, 06:06 PM

Well, also keep in mind that what "good sound" means heavily depends on the desired result. A sound that is generally thought of as desirable for a classical guitar (somewhat overly rounded, mellow, like in Jose Maria Gallardo's Trees Speak album) for example, is completely undesirable for a country-style acoustic guitar. It's also pretty awful for flamenco guitar (and I don't remember how many times such overly mellowy mics have been recommended to me by incompetent music salesmen as "ideal for flamenco guitar"). So, even the same instrument can be made to sound different depending on the application. With this in mind, it really becomes evident that firstly you have first to figure out what kind of sound you need and then go for the best mic in that sound category - i.e. flat, sweet, flattering, etc, and the best way for this is to listen to work recorded with that mic. Otherwise you risk using otherwise good mics that will give you a sound you were not shooting for.

Cucco

03-28-2008, 08:39 AM

In addition to reiterating that mic choice is VERY personal and much depends upon your desired results, I'd also like to weigh in VERY heavily for the Mojave MA-100s. I've been using a pair for about a month and a half now and have tried them on just about everything including:
Snare drum
toms
kick drum (yes, kick drum)
Pipe Organ (over 9000 pipes...used along with Schoeps CMC 6 MK2s)
Chapman Stick
Acoustic Guitar
Drum Overheads
Wind Ensemble (concert band)

I haven't found anything that these don't work well on. In fact, most everything these mics touch turn to gold.

I've done some shoot outs which I have posted in the blogs section of my MySpace page (www.myspace.com/sublymerecords)

Also, here's a clip of the MA-100s on acoustic guitar. The vox was through a combination of a Royer SF1 and a Blue Bluebird at equal distances and mixed to taste:

http://sublymerecords.com/Phil/Longest.mp3

Here are some pics of the setup. Note - in the Acoustic guitar tracks, the Royer SF12 was not being used for this sample - only as a means of comparison during mixing.

http://sublymerecords.com/Phil/1.jpg
http://sublymerecords.com/Phil/2.jpg
http://sublymerecords.com/Phil/3.jpg
http://sublymerecords.com/Phil/4.jpg

Cheers!

Jeremy

revert979

04-21-2008, 01:10 AM

Awesome sound Cucco. What mic pres did you send those MA-100's through?

Cucco

04-21-2008, 05:50 AM

Thanks!

The mic pres in question here were Millennia HV3D-8.

However, I've had a great deal of success with these mics with pres ranging from:
Aphex 107
Mackie 800R
RME mic pres
Focusrite ISA428 (particularly on the ISA and High Impedance settings - ISA more for drums and high more for guitar and acoustic work)

They're overall awesome mics!!!

Cheers-
J.

amarule

04-21-2008, 07:43 AM

At $800 each, they better sound awesome.

The Mojave MA-100 is a very nice mic, however IMO it's not worth the price, it's not that great. We have many mics in our arsenal that sound as good or better that cost less.

However, the point of mics and personal choice/desired result is extremely valid. No one mic does everything, and no one mic does everything for everyone.

dpd

04-21-2008, 05:21 PM

I've had some very nice results with vintage AKG C414's in a Blumlein configuration, although I use that more for groups. I find the sound very natural. AT 4050's worked, too. You just gotta experiment in your space with the artist and your gear.

Rad

04-21-2008, 10:44 PM

The Mojave MA-100 is a very nice mic, however IMO it's not worth the price, it's not that great. We have many mics in our arsenal that sound as good or better that cost less.

See, I don't know much about the MA-100. I have heard some very good things of this mic but I've also heard that there's a lot of hype about the Mojaves, so it's difficult for me to tell if it's overpriced or not. From what I hear it would seem that the quality is quite good and the only doubts some people are having if it's rightly priced.

At the other extreme is an European engineer I know, decidedly a purist, who claims that one cannot declare a brand "famous" before it starts to sell well in at least 5-6 countries other than where it came from. From that viewpoint the Mojaves may not appear so well-established as one would want to portray them. But this same guy also denounces Mackie, and as I mostly use Mackie gear, it should be obvious that I often don't agree with him.

I'd say, at this price point, the MA-100 better sound equally good or better than an Neumann. I'm excited to try this mic for myself to see what it's like.

Ted

04-22-2008, 04:21 PM

At the other extreme is an European engineer I know, decidedly a purist, who claims that one cannot declare a brand "famous" before it starts to sell well in at least 5-6 countries other than where it came from. From that viewpoint the Mojaves may not appear so well-established as one would want to portray them.
Well, Mojave is a relatively new company (although David Royer has been around for a while and is certainly well know) and the MA100 is their newest model...it's only been on the market for a year or so...so it's certainly not as well-established as some other microphones, as that takes time. I'm not sure about the "famous" part but it's certainly a high-quality microphone...I've tried it on drums (up close on a snare it's amazing, makes a great overhead microphone as well), various percussion instruments, guitar, and ukulele, and always been happy with the way it sounds.

I'd say, at this price point, the MA-100 better sound equally good or better than an Neumann. I'm excited to try this mic for myself to see what it's like.
I would say that it certainly does sound as good as a Neumann. It doesn't sound like a Neumann (at least, not any current models) but it's on par with, say, the KM184 quality-wise. It sounds different, but not better or worse. There's certainly personal taste involved, and depending on the source, genre etc one may sound better than the other in different situations and vice versa, but these microphones certainly hold their own.

Cucco

04-22-2008, 04:34 PM

I don't understand - how is $800 a pop for a quality tube microphone with switchable (included) capsules expensive?

I use these along side my Schoeps, Gefells, Neumanns, Royers and others and have had extremely positive results. This is on sources ranging from Pipe Organ, Wind Ensemble, Orchestra, Opera, Acoustic Guitar, Chapman Stick, Drums, etc.

The fact that it's got a VERY simple design, a nice Jensen transformer makes it a plus. The fact that I can get personal support from Dusty and Dave makes another plus. The fact that it can hold its own and even better against mics costing 2 to 3 times itself makes it a no-brainer.

In regards to the Neumann comment - this mic actually does sound a little like the old 54 with a bit more of a top end on it. The low end (particularly 80-200 Hz and the absolute bottom end for sure) and the upper mids are very similar. The pick up pattern is where I notice the biggest difference as the cardioid seems to be a bit more directional than the traditional cardioid. (but not by much and the off-axis response is quite smooth overall.)

Do you actually have the MA100 or have you used it Amarule? It seems like an awful big blanket statement to say that you have better mics that cost less. Which mics and how do they sound better to you?

Ted

04-22-2008, 04:39 PM

In regards to the Neumann comment - this mic actually does sound a little like the old 54 with a bit more of a top end on it.
Yes, that's why I qualified my statement with the "current Neumann" part...both Mojave microphones certainly do invoke the essence of certain vintage Neumann microphones without sounding like copies...

And I'd agree that $800 is not expensive for what the microphone is. The question I get regarding price on that microphone and the MA200 most often is why don't cost more...

Cucco

04-22-2008, 04:46 PM

Yeah, I figured you were hinting at that.

I agree - when I talked to Dave about this a few weeks ago, my biggest gripe to him (beside the piss-poor included mounting clip) was that I wish he would at least charge as much as the new Sennheiser modulars!

I'm curious to see if I can start making capsule adapters that will allow me to mount other's caps on the body (AKG, Schoeps, etc.). If I'm not mistaken, the capsule sees 48VDC in this mic as it acts like a traditional condenser feeding the tube acting as the cathode follower. It should just be a matter of machining, but I'll check with the source before I go screwing around with an $800 investment.

FWIW, I've got the new matched pair with a single 2-channel power supply and single carrying case. The package rocks - although, the cables are a bit short considering its potential uses. The good news is, you can use a standard Canare Star Quad wired with pins 1,2,4,5 going straight through and pin 3 on the shield. I've made some 35' and 50' cables to go along with the original (~12-~15') cables.

Cheers-
J.

Rad

04-22-2008, 09:38 PM

There's a branding issue here. There are people out there that will go buy Neumanns not because they can't get a better sound with a different mic, but because it gives them peace of mind, saves them trying different brands (of expensive mics that often can't be returned if open) etc. So they just go for something they know will work from the first time, and that's it. So the Neumanns carry a price premium for reputation pretty much the same way as a Patek Philippe watch can cost thousands because it is Patek Philippe. Whether this is good or not, it's not for me to decide. I think there's some of both.

Interestingly, I didn't realize the MA-100 had interchangeable capsules included in the price. This is a sizable difference.

Regarding pricing though, I see Amarule's point, although he doesn't say what mics he uses. AKG C451B, presumably one of the most demanded pencil mics of all times, sells at $570. It's a sizable difference, although a few extra capsules are probably worth the price.