Yamaha HS 80 M mix translation problem

[Rad]

We've been mixing on a pair of Yamaha HS 80 M's lately with which we seem to be running into a strange problem with mix translation of the lower end of the mix. The speakers are located in a treated control room, 2.5' away from the walls, at a horizontal angle of about 35 degrees to the wall, with room correction -2 dB on as is usually recommended in this setting. Also the walls behind them are treated with a graphite-based acoustic foam in addition to other treatment, and there are bass traps in the corners tailored to absorb the room resonant frequency which is 82 Hz. The listening position has been calibrated with an analyzer on pink and brown noise so that we know that what we are hearing falls within a +/- 3 dB band around the perfect flat curve.

The problem is that one particular song that sounds OK in the studio tends to sound boomy in a very particular frequency on pretty much any non-studio speaker. However, back in the studio, this resonant frequency disappears and we can't catch it either on the Yamaha speakers, nor on the second pair of reference monitors (by a completely different manufacturer), nor on the graphical analyzer, to that matter. This is extremely puzzling.

Naturally, the first thing I thought was that we've cut the bass too much with the room control mode so we are not hearing it when it is there, but this appears NOT to be the case. Commercial CDs we play in this setting sound quite balanced and nothing even remotely like bass-deficient, without being overbearing.

Puzzled by this whole thing, I went to a different studio and played this whole thing again on a pair of Adam S3A's. There, the Adam's revealed some minor traces of boominess on that frequency, but not enough to warrant any correction. And, of course, when going back to a variety of commercial speakers, including a diskman and the crappiest possible headphones, there it was again.

So, the real problem appears to be that this frequency problem surfaces when you go from high-quality studio speakers to medium and low quality consumer-grade electronics. This is quite puzzling, so anyone having experience with this kind of problem, please feel welcome to chime in!

[Smithcok]

We've been mixing on a pair of Yamaha HS 80 M's lately with which we seem to be running into a strange problem with mix translation of the lower end of the mix. The speakers are located in a treated control room, 2.5' away from the walls, at a horizontal angle of about 35 degrees to the wall, with room correction -2 dB on as is usually recommended in this setting. Also the walls behind them are treated with a graphite-based acoustic foam in addition to other treatment, and there are bass traps in the corners tailored to absorb the room resonant frequency which is 82 Hz. The listening position has been calibrated with an analyzer on pink and brown noise so that we know that what we are hearing falls within a +/- 3 dB band around the perfect flat curve.

The problem is that one particular song that sounds OK in the studio tends to sound boomy in a very particular frequency on pretty much any non-studio speaker. However, back in the studio, this resonant frequency disappears and we can't catch it either on the Yamaha speakers, nor on the second pair of reference monitors (by a completely different manufacturer), nor on the graphical analyzer, to that matter. This is extremely puzzling.

Naturally, the first thing I thought was that we've cut the bass too much with the room control mode so we are not hearing it when it is there, but this appears NOT to be the case. Commercial CDs we play in this setting sound quite balanced and nothing even remotely like bass-deficient, without being overbearing.

Puzzled by this whole thing, I went to a different studio and played this whole thing again on a pair of Adam S3A's. There, the Adam's revealed some minor traces of boominess on that frequency, but not enough to warrant any correction. And, of course, when going back to a variety of commercial speakers, including a diskman and the crappiest possible headphones, there it was again.

So, the real problem appears to be that this frequency problem surfaces when you go from high-quality studio speakers to medium and low quality consumer-grade electronics. This is quite puzzling, so anyone having experience with this kind of problem, please feel welcome to chime in!

Well, that's odd.

My first suggestion would be to maybe try your HS80s in a different (either another studio or just any ol' room) room and see what your comparison tests sound like in that room.

Do you have a pair of NS10's in your studio? If not, I would get a pair of those, and just run your mixes through those before you print them. In my experience, they have been pretty good at identifying low-mid and bass problems that I wouldn't be noticing on "better" monitors.

(This is a personal position:) I usually am not happy when I mix on super high fidelity monitors (like the upper echelon ADAMs). I think just about anything can sound at least passable on those puppies.

Good luck... that's odd.

[EC_Beast]

When you put on the graphic analyzer...is it in the room, or on the master channel of your mix?

Also I find, and maybe some people feel differently here, so let me know, that non-studio monitors tend to boost the low end anyway. They're designed that way to give an enhanced feeling of rumble for music and movie watching. So even though the mix sounds excellent on studio monitors, the offending frequency is right on the fence of problematic, and pleasant...so when you put the song through speakers that boost, it tips the scales into problematic.

Maybe try rolling off where the frequency is just a touch so it's slightly less noticeable on the studio monitors, and then pump it through crappy non commercial guys to see where you stand.

[Rad]

We used to have a pair of NS-10's but sadly, we sold them a couple of years ago, because their tweeters had burned out twice during the warranty period for no apparent reason.

As regards the Adams, out of the studio speakers I tried they seemed to reveal the problem to the greatest extent. But it is odd nonetheless. I am beginning to think that perhaps we overdid the bass traps. You know that the height of the bass trap determines which frequency it absorbs, so if we overdid them it is possible that there is a narrow frequency range in which the bass is cut too much but overall it is not audible because the range is narrow. Otherwise, I don't know what to think.

[michaelhoddy]

Where is the frequency in question? And when you say "treated control room," what does that involve? And what are the dimensions (HxWxD) of your control room? I'm going somewhere with all this... :)


I am beginning to think that perhaps we overdid the bass traps. You know that the height of the bass trap determines which frequency it absorbs, so if we overdid them it is possible that there is a narrow frequency range in which the bass is cut too much but overall it is not audible because the range is narrow..

I too am thinking room modes, maybe not this exact problem, but something like it- I'll know more with room dimensions and the frequency it's happening at.


(This is a personal position I usually am not happy when I mix on super high fidelity monitors (like the upper echelon ADAMs). I think just about anything can sound at least passable on those puppies.

I know some people do feel this way about things like the Genelecs, but my experience with the ADAMs was actually the exact opposite. When I first got them, I put up some mixes from my old monitors, and they sounded HORRIBLE. I was actually depressed and wanted to quit. I really have to work to make things sound good on the ADAM's. The good news is that once the mix does sound good through them, it usually sounds pretty decent other places as well.

[Tarktones]

Rad, is this issue mix-specific? Is it just this one client whose stuff is having this issue? Or is it everything you're mixing on these monitors is having this wambly bass?

[Smithcok]

I know some people do feel this way about things like the Genelecs, but my experience with the ADAMs was actually the exact opposite. When I first got them, I put up some mixes from my old monitors, and they sounded HORRIBLE. I was actually depressed and wanted to quit. I really have to work to make things sound good on the ADAM's. The good news is that once the mix does sound good through them, it usually sounds pretty decent other places as well.

Yeah, I may have spoken past my experience. I have not mixed on ADAMs (other than hearing some here and there). My generalization was in fact referring to Genelecs.

[Rad]

Tarktones -- as far as I am aware, yes, the issue is mix-specific. Other commercial CDs we have done did not have this problem. But perhaps there was not much in this low frequency range there anyway, it is hard to tell.

Michaelhoddy - the control room is about 17 x 12 x 7'6" (long x wide x tall). It is not as big as we'd like, that's for sure. There is 2 different kinds of treatment. One is bass traps in the corners behind the speakers. The other is diffusion/absorption treatment consisting of pyramid-like acoustic foam positioned on the walls covering about1/2 of the wall. Behind the speakers, the foam is of a heavier kind using a carbon polymer.
When we first got this room, we measured it at the listening spot. Actually we hired a guy with a calibration mic and a graphic analyser who came here and ran various kinds of noise to determine frequency problems, and there were some, mainly in the low range as expected. Basically there were frequency "overshoots" at 41 and 82 Hz, which we damped by installing the bass traps and decoupling twice: once the monitor stand from the floor, and a second time the monitors from the stands. Upon the second measurement, things were acceptably good if one listened up to 80-82 dB. So, this is I can say about the room.