recording a HORN BAND.. advices and mic distribution

[Alécio Costa- Brazil]

HI FRIENDS!
I will be recoding a Horn Band by November with the following voices:
sax baritone
sax alto
sax tenor
sax soprano
flute
flautim
clarinete
trumpet
surdo
snare
bombo
bombardino
bombardão
tuba
trombone

it will be around 40 musicians.

I have the following mics:

2 AT4050 2 C418
2 C3000B 2 BETA 57
2 C2000B 1 SM91
1 SM 91 also.. buying 2 AT4040

It is a budget project. I will use my PT 5.1.1 mix system with a G4 800.
I know this is not the best gear for doing this..

doubts
a) should I use a main stereo pair over the conductor´s head at cardioid or as spaced omnis?

b) whcig instruments should get spot mics?

c) applying microphones to all the voice will make phase and leakage turn life into a night mare. so....? I am afarid of loosing some lead from different roups or so..


Any ideas?

Besides, if Sweetwater can deliver to Brazil.. why not buy the mics with you, with such a nice site?

Thanks again!:D
p.s: THIS IS my first post on here!!!!!
NIKA, are you there?

[paddyopossum]

Have you considered the AudioTechnica ATM835b shotgun mikes? These are really good at picking up alot of sound from a distance, and a pair of those, well placed, might work real well. They'll run on batteries, in a pinch, but I recommend 48DC. I've had experience with them in live settings,,not recorded, but they performed admirably.

[Alécio Costa- Brazil]

thanks for the tips!
I am thinking of At4040´s!
:p

[Audio aardvark]

Do you have a chance to run a rehearsal in the hall

[Alécio Costa- Brazil]

Hi friend! In fact it will be 3 to 4 days recording of 40 muscians of 14 songs. I always ak for few versions of each song so as to be able to clone, edit at the tudio later.
what are your suggestions my friend?
:p

[Audio aardvark]

Pardon the premature posting previous to this !!

I was curious if you could spend some time with the musicians
during rehearsal. This is critical. If you do not have this chance
I suggest you go omni on the main pair. Most likely to need help
will be the clarinet ,flute, and flautim . Brass and percussion
generally do well on thier own. I suggest you position 5 or 6 spots
around the various sections and check your playback to see where you need help. Move and use the spots only as required. Make note of the layout of the stage and measure the distances between sections, this will help you make good placement desicions when you mix.

Find out if you have anybody playing a solo and save some mics for this.

You should also consider a second pair in cardiod back from stage centre. Get them up a bit higher than ear level and also measure and note the distance from the omni pair. The general blend of a larger ensemble will be quite different as you move back in the room. Remember that your low frequencies need a lot more distance for a full cycle.

Cheers
Audio Aardvark

[Alécio Costa- Brazil]

thanks aardvar!
some questions about your precious comments:
a) you mention A LOT MORE DISTANCE so s to have low frequency make a full cycle. Is this related with the fact that lows are omidiretional?
how far? bass instruments? did not understand thuis very well

b)the second cardioid pair should be put how distant from the main omni pair? maybe in the rear? or exctly at the center?

c) I am afraid that at omni I will pick up too much room . In your opinion 12 mics are enough?
1) AT4050 - LEFT
2) AT4050 - RIGHT
3) C3000B - SAX L
4) C3000B - SAX CENTER
5) C2000B - SAX RIGHT
6) BETA 57 - TRUMPETS A
7) C2000b - TRUMPETS A
8) SNARE - C418
9)BOMBO - BETA57
10)SURDO - BETA 57
11)CYMBALS - C3000
12) FLUTES - AT4040 or SM81
13)CLARINETS - AT4040 or SM81
14)bombardino -
15)bombardão
16)baritone
17)TROMBONES

(18 different voices in fact)

WHICH DO YOU think I should avoid to ninimize phase an so?


when you mention MEASURE DISTANCES so as to help making decisions at mix, do you mean track align in PRO TOOLS or put some delay to compensate for phase? shall be quite difficult to do, right?

studiodp!terra.com.brMany thanks!
Hope to hear from you all again!!

[Audio aardvark]

Hello Alecio,

If you can send me a stage plot with a complete breakdown of
the number of each instument (2 altos ,3 tenors etc..) and the
front to back, side to side and top to bottom dimensions of the
stage and the hall I could better assist you. It would also be helpful to
know what you have for mic pres as some mics and pres do not
compliment each other in certain situations.
As for the number of mics it really depends on the kind of sound
and approach you wish to take. Fewer mics is almost always better
but whenever there are alot of players and a limited time to work
with them it is hard not to put up lots of safety spots.
If you have a good sounding hall you are probably better served to
rent a killer pair for your mains and set up as few spots as really needed.
If you want a great cardiod for this I suggest the B@K 4011's. I have
used these on a number of large ensemble recordings and they are
splendid. I also use (and own) the 4003's and 4004's but these are omni.
I have used the 4011's back in the hall about thirty feet from the conductor, 12 feet high. I combine this with a neuman sm2 over the
conductor 8 feet high. The sm2 is a small diaphram stereo tube mic
that can be found quite cheaply. they are sweet and easy to place.
I will keep an eye out for your plots.. till then

Audio Aardarvk

[Alécio Costa- Brazil]

thanks friend!
I will have to take a loot at the place and measure again everything!

However I do not have these mics in Brazil. Since it is a budget project, I will have to use the 02RMic pres, sixteen of them. I do not intend to use more than 16 mics.
16 tracks x 5 minutes x 6 verions x 14 different songs:
Lots of disk space even being at 44k/24 bits!!!!!!!!!

the Mics I have are the ones I mentoned and I am also considering buying AT4040´s.

studiodp@terra.com.br

[Audio aardvark]

Hello Alecio,

I will be out of town for a couple of weeks with
limited access to the net so if my replies to
your inquiries are spotty do not think me inattentive
to the questions. My travelling email will pick-up any
messages to my studio email so do not be shy if
you get any new info on your plots etc..

Audio Aardvarkl

[Alécio Costa- Brazil]

thanks friend! Very kind of you! You are from my "team" - hehehe
I will also travel this week and come back only sept15th. I will try to scan the orchestra pic at a a friend´s house. No good scanner at the moment
hehehe

Nice weekend!
:)

[Alécio Costa- Brazil]

Hi aardvard!
I have just came back from a short trip! Are you fine? Have you already come back too?
I have just bought a GT55, which is a budget but seems to be fine.
This week I am going back to research and study all the great things and ideas you mentioned. I will scan the sketch the conductor did to me and send you.
As always, many thanks for all your attention and patience!!
Hope that Nika also might give me some nice advices on here!
My email: studiodp@terra.com.br
Nice week!

[Nika]

Alecio,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I was away for a week and then sick for a couple of days.

I haven't done much recording of horn bands, but have quite a bit of experience playing in them. Most of the time the mics that we used were merely for PA applications, and generally had a mic for every two instrumentalists.

In light of my lack of experience I'll only give you my suggestions of what I would do to set up for starters, but recognize that these opinions are relatively unfounded, so take of them what you will.

I'd probably approach this much like any classical recording, essentially capturing "the performance" rather than a bunch of individual instruments. I'd go for a main pair of mics, either ORTF over the conductor's head, or a spaced pair of omnis in a similar location. Then I'd probably accentuate this setup with a couple of spot mics used for solos only. Finally, I'd probably individually mic the rhythm section (if there is one?) so that I could adjust their levels with respect of the rest of the setup later. That would mean piano, guitar, bass, and drums. With any luck this group will play in balance "as a group" and I won't need to "keep" any of the mics other than the main pair. Just in case, though, a few solo mics, or choicely micing a few instruments may help to get some balance back.

Remember that all of the classic jazz recordings done in the 1950's were done with one mic!

Having said all of this, I'd probably pick some pretty snazzy mics, especially if only a pair of them was going to take the brunt of the responsibility for the overall quality of the recording.

I hope this helps?

Nika.

[Alécio Costa- Brazil]

thanks Nika! I shall go cardioid instead of Omni because the very very old theather stage shall not have that big acoustic - hehe

I generally have to do magic afterwards with these budget projects - hehehe

I will show the complete map. But were you with the flu? Man, I have never seen something like that before.... I stayed 2 months with a soft one that just could not get rid of.

hope you recover soon.

BTW.. does sweetwater deliver to Brazil?
Thanks

[Alécio Costa- Brazil]

Nika, Audio aardvard!
Shall I sent you a small jpg sketch of the horn band topology? I will use a stereo main pair at cardioid with 2 At4050´s but needed some suggestions as to avoid huge phase problems and limit/select the mics available for this specific project!
Everything is written on a A4 sheet of this jpg
Many thanks in advance!
:)
:p

[Nika]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alécio Costa- Brazil
thanks Nika! I shall go cardioid instead of Omni because the very very old theather stage shall not have that big acoustic - hehe

I generally have to do magic afterwards with these budget projects - hehehe

I will show the complete map. But were you with the flu? Man, I have never seen something like that before.... I stayed 2 months with a soft one that just could not get rid of.

Yes, I had the flu, but feel much better now. Thanx!

BTW.. does sweetwater deliver to Brazil?
Thanks

Yes, we do.


Cheers!
Nika.

[Alécio Costa- Brazil]

shall be buying some products in close future!
Many thanks my friend!
keep up the very nice job and attitude!
:)