New PC Needed - suggestions

[dixiechoir]

OK-so I love music but hate computers - however - I have a nerd friend who is going to build me a PC. My home studio uses 3 linked ADATS which I have been mixing manually with a Mackie 1604. I am purchasing a MOTU 2408 and SONAR. For the time being I prefer to record straight to ADAT (I know-I'm a cave man). I need a system mostly for automating the mix- any suggestions?

[TeeCee]

Automating the mix where, in the PC? SONAR supports recordable automation. I don't use it with audio enough to know how it handles audio envelopes. If I were working on a PC with 24 tracks of audio, I would put them all in Vegas where I can draw volume, pan envelopes, and FX send envelopes at will. I don't think (keyword think) FX envelopes or bus envelopes are supported yet, but Acid 4 (just out) is supposed to have them so Vegas hopefully isn't too far out. Buut then again, Vegas 3 isn't that old and I'd personally have mixed feelings about a new version. Sometimes the upgrades don't seem to add enough. But with computer technology in flux so much (soft synth, FX, driver technology, and OS' mainly), your older version is not necessarily guaranteed to work with anything after the new version is out.

Or are you looking for a control surface? EM or Keyboard did a review on a few dedicated control surfaces within the last 6 months or so (I'm way behind on magazines). You may want to re-ask the question in another forum if you are looking for a control surface. Most of the non-software specific ones aren't platform specific.

Just 1204 characters. I've been slacking lately.

[Justin]

Make sure your friend does his research on the motherboard and cards he uses for the system. Specifically there are issues with one of the Via chipsets that cause problems for most audio software. These are usually on AMD processor compatible motherboards. Some will tell you there are problems with the AMD line, but actually it's just some of the specific motherboards, there are some that are perfectly fine. Also, make sure you have one drive dedicated to audio, one for the operating system.
try to get at least 7200 rpm.

Sonar is very pc-friendly so you shouldn't have a ton of compatibility problems.

I believe TeeCee has some links to recommended hardware guides.

[AcousticPro]

I don't know that I would steer someone away from discussing a control surface in a software forum. It's very critical what the software is and what control surface you want to use in deciding which way to go. The hardware is nothing without software implementation. Can you imagine people shopping for a Mackie or Yamaha digital console and buying them strictly on the looks and number of knobs, buttons, and quality of faders? It's silly when you think about it that way, but that is what you do when you shop for a control surface without considering your software and how it implements what your software is capable of. Logic Control is a perfect example of this. It's the perfect marriage between software and hardware for sequencing, arranging and composing. ProTools is another example with the Control 24 and ProControl systems. Houston is along these lines, but still too general because of the variance in Steinbergs software line. What good is a HUI for your software if it doesn't utilize all the buttons and functionality of the software or vice versa? Just something to think about.

"Pick your software first, you wouldn't build an analog studio without picking your console first, would you?"

[TeeCee]

Jeff,
Besides the fact that I think I totally missed what he was asking, I was just recommending that he broadened his question outside of the Windows computer forum because many control surfaces are cross platform. Other than that, I figured if his friend was building him a PC, the guy already knew what to put into it. By system, I was thinking "outside the (PC) box".

[TeeCee]

arbiter said
I believe TeeCee has some links to recommended hardware guides.
Most of my links are hard core sights, and as Jeff would point out, dixiechoir would lose a lot of production time if he tried to catch up with what is what in the PC world. If the nerd friend builds computers regularly, he should build whatever platform he is used to and is comfortable supporting. If he isn't comfortable supporting you, stay with the ADATs. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

If he builds you a PC, and you are just going to use it for mixing audio that you've recorded on ADATs (no MIDI, soft synths, or samplers), here's some recommendations that the friendly Sweetwater folks will have to assist to paint the full picture. These are just my recommendations.

Commodity priced CPU, buy at the point where the next expensive CPU does not provide the same MHz/price ratio. For instance, the AMD Athlon 1700+ can be had for about $65 and the 1800+ for about $76. 18% more cost for 6% more processor. You can step your choice up a bit, but I wouldn't spend the money on the top of the line CPU. You shouldn't compare Intel vs. AMD in this fashion, your friend is hopefully using what he's comfortable with.

I would get a motherboard with built in extra IDE ports. You would be better off with one that can support CD-ROMs and CD-Rs on the extra connectors. The nerd (for lack of a given name) can check motherboard forums to ensure that the extra IDE interface works well. This is so you can use a dedicated IDE channel for each of the two hard drives you'll have, the CD-R, and the CD/DVD-ROM.

Did I mention that you should have a boot drive, a data drive, a CD burner, and a CD/DVD-ROM? I don't think SCSI is necessary these days, as long as you don't start filling up hard drives like beer can recycle bins.

I haven't gotten past Win2000 yet on PCs, but Cakewalk and Sonic Foundry people are recommending Windows XP. Make your own decision, but please avoid WindowsME.

Here's where the Sweetwater guys can really help. If you plan on continuing to record multitrack into ADATs, you can go the slow cheap route of using a stereo card with or without digital transfer cababilities to get two channels into the PC at a time. Or you can get a nice ADAT interface solution that can transfer all 8 channels of an ADAT simultaneously. Or a multiple ADAT interface to transfer all of your ADATs simultaneously. With this, you may be able to use the ADATs for the analog to digital conversion and record straight into the PC. I'm not sure how taxing recording 24 tracks simultaneously will be, but it's certainly no puppy.

You don't need 3D video capabilities, but a video card that will support two monitors may be nice if an dwhen you really get into the PC. They're actually cheaper than medium end gaming video cards.

If you only plan on mixing in SONAR or the like, you can get away with 256MB of RAM, but 512MB wouldn't hurt. Over 512 is supposed to hurt Win98SE PCs, though.

[dixiechoir]

Thanks TeeCee - your last post is the info I was looking for. As I alluded to, I am an old timer engineer and have not really understood the new digital world - but I'm tired of trying to find 24 fingers for real time mixing while my buddies are using a point and click mouse to memorize one step at a time. Thanks

[Foreverain4]

you might want to check this out. mackie used to make an automation system for analog mixers. behringer made one too (no suprise) which i have and use every now and then. you may be able to find one on ebay or something. i would strongly recomend getting into pc recording though. the possibilities only stop with your imagination!



http://www.mackie.com/Products/Ultramix.asp


lynn
www.therecordinghouse.com

[AcousticPro]

TeeCee,

Thanks for the clarification on the control surface side of things.

DixieChoir,

Why would you not want to be able to mix in real time with faders and maintain interactivity with the music? I may be misunderstanding what you're saying, but wouldn't you want automation that allowed you more than one mouse click at a time to create a more interactive mix? Just curious. I think I understand the concept of some automation as opposed to none, but if you can have your cake and eat it too, why not?

[dixiechoir]

Once upon a time I would mix my stuff on Music/time Trax. Using a mouse and setting one fader at a time is time consuming but it works for what I do. Are you suggesting that I would want a physical control surface in conjunction with a PC based system? In my real world here I am having most of the trouble with the vocals. I record a 60 voice childrens choir with multiple stacks and several soloists. It's much easier to focus on one fader at a time in this setting. When you work with children you are constantly having to pull-down tracks to hide coughs, sneezes and foot kicks--if you get the picture. Most of the time we pre-mix much of the music on a sequencer anyway. Thanks Jeff

[NukleoN]

My recomendation...

Get a WDM enabled sound card. Check and see that MOTU supports WDM and if not, get a card which does. THis is important for soft synths under Sonar.

Use XP Pro! Nothing less...XP is rock solid for music, and there's no issue with ACPI vs. Standard Mode as you'd have under Win2K.

Go with 7200 RPM IDE drives. No need for SCSI at all. You'll just add cost and with little benefit. I don't use SCSI any longer, and IDE drives are huge now...I only buy the IBM deskstars now.

Avoid the VIA chipset for music applications....go Intel or research what you need to do to circumvent the VIA chipset problems you may encounter and which so many others have encountered.

[TeeCee]

Originally posted by NukleoN

Avoid the VIA chipset for music applications....go Intel or research what you need to do to circumvent the VIA chipset problems you may encounter and which so many others have encountered.
The problems most people had was with older VIA chip sets and usually Sound Blasters. There are many people with VIA chip sets and no issues (my self included). You mention the old VIA issue and you don't mention the Deathstar issue wih IBM drives (which I also own).

[NukleoN]

Hi Tee Cee...I didn't mention the Deathstar issue because I didn't know about it! :) Could you elaborate? I've had great luck with them and have been using them for years...

Thanks,

[TeeCee]

The IBM Deskstar series with 15GB platters, I think it's the 75GXP, was not their best product. Evidently, the 75gig version with 5 platters built up too much heat and cratered more than a typical hard drive, enough to generate talk of a class action law suit. The legacy lived on long enough to scare many people away from the 20GB platter version, the 60GXP. Notice that they limited the 20GB platter version to only 3 platters for a flagship version that was 60gigs. I have a 45GB 75GXP, a 60GB 60GXP, and 2 80GB 120GXPs in three of my computers and I haven't had any problems.

The 75GB 75GXP is still on the market, especially at hard drive discounters. It is a verifiable problem with no solution other than luck of the draw: your drive may or may not fail due to heat. Unlike the VIA issues which had fixes and work arounds and are pretty much a non-issue with modern VIA chipsets. Not to mention that the people that had the problem most were Sound Blaster gaming users, not serious audio users. Just another good reason not to use a Sound Blaster.

Not to say that the VIA chip sets are now perfect. Up to the VIA KT-233A, VIA chip sets for AMD's do have a reduced PCI throughput, more than enough for most hard core PC users, but the PCI bandwidth is not what it should be. I haven't seen anyone mention the issue since the KT-333 came out, but that doesn't mean the problem went away. That means most hardware reviewers suck and are like the rest of the media, looking for hot attention grabbing topics, not actually trying to help us.

VIA chip sets for P4's are basically not popular because they don't have Intel's blessing and VIA is currently being sued by Intel over the existence of them. Evidently, Intel does not believe that they gave VIA the right to use some of the technology they are using. These chip sets also had the PCI bus issues early on as they use the same south bridge chips as the AMD chip sets.

So to state that VIA chip sets are no good for audio is like saying that Intel chip sets don't support DDR SDRAM and IBM drives die due to over-heating: it's out dated info.

2261 characters, is that my longest yet? It's a good thing Sweetwater put the counter in, it'd be a bitch to count that by hand :p

[GrumpsUnite]

Yes, um...with regards to one drive dedicated to audio, and one for the operating system, I am a new comer just setting up my system . My IBM Intelistation 6868-733 PIII- came with an 18 GB SCSI hard drive with an Adaptec Ultra 2 PCI card. I just added an EIDE 120 GB drive (w/8meg cache). All the system files and other variouse programs are already on the SCSI. I have not installed my recording software yet because I do not know, should that be installed on the SCSI (along with all of the other programs), or should it go on the IDE (which, at the moment, is totally "virgin", clean, un-polluted)? Also, should the recorded track data be sent to a seperate drive than the recording software, and if so -which would be the best choice, SCSI Ultra 2 or IDE? Thanks for any help. I have been waiting to install my software until I figure out the specifics of this dual-drive setup.