electronic drums vs acoustic drums

[Bob]

have we finally gotten to the point where electronic drums are sounding as good as acoustic drums or are our ears getting so used to some of the newer styles where drum machines/synths are so prevalent that the traditional electronic drum sound is just becoming the norm? also, can we be as creative when recording electronic kits as we can are when recording acoustic kits? is there anything anyone does to get a truly unique electronic kit sound? I've got both in my studio and have to say, the ability to go direct into my daw without micing up a whole kit is certainly appealing. Or the fact that I can record the kit via MIDI and then "fix" the performance saving me hours of actually practicing so I can play it right the first time.

So what are you using to lay down your drum tracks? what type of music are you doing? And, are electronic drums being used in traditionally acoustic music settings (rock n roll, jazz, etc)? Any examples of acoustic drums being used where more traditionally electronic drums are used (hip hop, electronica, techno, etc)?

[Rael]

Personally I just don't think the electronic instruments are there yet. I have a couple of drum boxes and they sound pretty good, but most of the time I end up using a real drummer with a great sounding kit. It's a pain to mic it all up and get tones, but worth it in the end. Now, for demos and anything short of the final production I use electronics. This is also true for other instruments like horns and guitars. I've never once heard a guitar sample I could stand to listen to - of course I play guitar so I'm pretty close to that one.

Depending upon the style of music I do think one can get away with an electronic kit much of the time. I actually prefer it for live gigs, just much easier all the way around. The Roland kits are pretty expressive these days.

[Bob]

this is true. And especially the way pop music is going these days, it seems these electronic sounds (drums or otherwise) are what the producers want.

[Bob]

and that's great in the studio, but why must we have "live" performances based around sequences and drum machines. Especially when there are so many electronic kits that will give that same sound (and so many great musicians that could bring more life to the live show). I've even heard of a very famous 70's Rock band who uses background tapes instead of playing live. At the vary least they should have a backing band behind a curtain or something:rolleyes:

[Donnie]

I think that the "boxes" aren't there yet as far as drum sounds. However there are some VERY good sample cd's of drum kits that would do the trick. Sweetwaters drum cd is very good as well as Giga Drums by East West. As soon as software samplers become stable enough to be used live we will have a great alternative to the real thing.

Which brings up another point. Once the hardware/software is there the advatages will be great. We'll be able to choose between all different kinds of kits and shells....I can't wait!

Donnie

[atma]

i certainly don't have the studio resources to properly mic up and record / sample a drum set (at this point anyway).

if i'm not using analog drum machine sounds, then i generally take samples of breakbeats and manually slice out all the individual drum tones in an editor (never liked ReCycle very much) and use them to form my own kits. in this way, i can have an 'electronic' kit, but one that can be velocity mapped, or otherwise programmed so that there's enough variations / nuances to keep it interesting. in this context, i can manipulate the rhythm far beyond what a normal drummer can do, programming extremely complex or fast rhythms with pitch shifting or other fx. i also sometimes like using analog drum sounds because they have a certain feel to them which can work in some situations with electronic music.

if you listen to the newer "IDM" style music (which is a pretty generic label for a far ranging collection of styles in the underground), a lot of people are abandoning traditional drum tones altogether, in favor of using any and every kind of interesting percussive-like sound as their 'kit'. originally started by groups like autechre, aphex twin, and squarepusher, it's now expanded into a whole new-school of artists bent on pushing the boundries of sonic & musical possibilities. why limit yourself to standard practices? :D

[Bob]

this is true. anything can be a percussion instrument, all it takes is for something to be hit (or in electronica terms sound like it was hit):)

[Ted]

I think the point that both have their places is an important one. Having said that, although the newer electronic drums have come closer to the sound of acoustic drums and may sometimes be indistinguishable from acoustics on certain types of recordings (depending on how much processing, etc is involved) I think the main thing that is missing is the feel. Even though the newer electronic drums have crossfades between different samples at different velocity levels and even sensitivity to different zones, it's still not quite right. For example, the new Roland ride cymbal has three separate zones and is awesome, it still doesn't give you near the possibilities of a good real ride cymbal. The best jazz drummers have been known for being able to coax hundreds of sounds out of a single ride cymbal, and while that may not be a fair comparison...of all the different genres out there, traditional jazz is probably the last place we'll see electric drums become popular...even in the rock music I play I certainly get more useful sounds out of my ride cybal than I could get out of any electronic cymbal. Same goes for the other drums and cymbals...especially the snare drum. This also applies to the great samples out there. Although one could sample dozens of sounds out of a single ride cymbal, to program a part that would take advantage of all that would take much longer than it would take to simply play the part (if it were even possible). Comes down to the feel.

Having said that, when you look at producers who demand that their drummers give them total consistency...each snare hit should sound the same, etc...why not go with electronics? Especially if all they're going to do once the drummer leaves is "fix" everything in Pro Tools...

-Ted

[djflake]

i mainly use drum machines and synths to create my dance tracks, i love the manipulation factors of the drum machines, but it is truly difficult to have the live changes a drummer can provide. I have been working for about a year and a half now, and i am just now feeling confident about my "live sound" capability. I definately love the electronic sound and feel of my machines, but nothing will ever compare to a good live drummers spontanious changes.

[Bob]

djflake. I agree with you about having a live drummer, or live musicians in general, but when you play out live, does your drummer use an electronic kit or an acoustic one?

[djflake]

hey bob, well my live drummer doesnt use kits, but i really dont have a live drummer, i work by myself with several drum machines, samplers and synths. Kindof like a dj, but i make the grooves instead of layering other peoples music (no disrespect to any dj, beat matching isnt easy, i just like creation). Any way, since every machine i work off is synced to a tempo i think it would be hard to find a drummer (in this area) who could keep "perfect" time with my samplers and synts.

[HandelMan]

I've recently started using a Roland Hand Sonic in the band that I play percussion in. It's really opened our sound up to a whole world of options, but we do have an acoustic drumset in the band. Even with the handsonic's great sounds and control options, I still take a whole shitload of acoustic gear with me to our shows, I.E. Congas, Bongos, Djembe, blocks and what not. I just find that I can be 100% more musical on the real instruments. While I love the flexibility that my hand sonic gives me, I would never give up playing the real drums live. I feel like electronic instruments should just be taken as a way to get new sounds, not recreate sounds that you can already make with an acoustic instrument. The beauty of electronic instruments is that you can create any sound you can imagine and play it in a live situation.

Obviously, the studio is a completely different story, and since every session has it's own needs, there is no answer as to which kind of instrument is "better." I just love the fact that I have the option of taking one box and playing everything I could play with a truckload of instruments.

I will never stop playing the acoustic instruments in favor of an electronic counterpart however. It doesn't matter how much memory and ram we throw into these boxes, I don't think we'll ever be able to have an electronic machine that can accurately represent an acoustic instrument's sound. However, there are a lot of examples where the acoustic instrument's sound isn't what the artist wants.

To me, there is just so much room for experimentation, and it all has to do with individual tastes and the trends going on in the recording industry. The fact that we now have the option is what is great, and the more options we have, the more room I as an artist have to be creative.
Ben

[Jonniboy]

No..... If we're talking drum sounds, We're pretty close but we're a decade away from good electronic cymbals and hats. Roland's got a good thing going with thier stuff but we're not quite there!!

[Ted]

I wonder if we'll ever get there? I think we're pretty close as far as the end result is concerned...it's often very difficult, if not impossible, to tell when electronic drums are used on a record if it's done right...but I still think we have a ways to go as far as making things feel right, especially with the cymbals. It also doesn't quite feel right to me to hit a drum or cymbal but have the sound come from somewhere else.

-Ted

[TeeCee]

Since this thread has been revived, if my electronic drums sounds sounded like acoustic drums, I'd be pissed! By the time Electronic drums pass perfectly as acoustic drums, nobody will want acoustic drums (that's just a joke).

[Smugma]

Ok, well, it is late and I feel like mouthing off because I think I know more than everyone else here ...just kidding. Actually I'm really tired and feel as though I need to explain juust in case I say something that's already been said.

When it comes to electronic drums and acoustic drums, I think you're making a comparison that doesn't need to be made. Especially when you talk about electronic drums "replacing" acoustic drums.

Personally I feel that electronic drums should be used as a tool to augment acoustic drums, and vice versa, depending on the situation. Some music can be better served by electronics, some by acoustic, and some by both.

Liken in to acoustic guitar vs. electric guitar. The two aren't really in competition with the other, and generally speaking (aside from those nifty effects pedals, and varying situations, etc.), they don't try to imitate each other or replace each other.

Have we gotten to the point where electronics can perfectly imitate acoustics? Does it matter? I mean, aside from the convenience that it would offer the operator of a project studio, I doubt it matters all that much. I mean, we probably could get to the point where acoustics and electrics are sonically indistinguishable...but why would we want to? Two different instruments achieving the same sound? What's the point?

Just my two cents. And now, some fun smilies! :bounce: :banana: :classic: :scared: :smokin: :alien:

[Bob]

I like that acoustic guitar to electric guitar analogy. Very good. You do your best work when you tired :lick:

[Ted]

When it comes to electronic drums and acoustic drums, I think you're making a comparison that doesn't need to be made. Especially when you talk about electronic drums "replacing" acoustic drums.

I agree, but I'm not sure if the manufacturers do...they're always trying to make their drums and cymbals more and more like the "real thing"...and it seems like a lot of people want to be able to use electronic drums instead of acoustics. I'm not sure how many of them are drummers, but that's certainly where they're trying to push things...

-Ted

[TeeCee]

I think the drive for electric drums to replace acoustic drums is maybe for the convenience and versatility. Kind of like the Line 6 Pod (did I mess that name up?). If I could tune in Neil Perts drum set for Tom Sawyer and then switch to Van Halen's sound from Hot For Teacher and maybe rock out to Lars' sound for a while it would be neato, kool, sweat deal. And it would be far cheaper and convenient than owning sets with those sounds tuned just right.

Why do percussion modules have so many banks? Is it just so you can change out the "power" toms for a set of timbales for the next song?

But I would agree that for the right music an acoustic set is needed. Others may not agree with what I feel really needs an acoustic set.

[Smugma]

Electronic drums do certainly offer advantages that acoustics never could. One of the most important being volume control (how many times have we had the urge to practice at the most inconvenient of times? Like 3 AM...) and the versitility that TeeCee mentioned. And that's wonderful. However, what I'd like to see is, more than electronics that SOUND like real drums, are electronics that FEEL completely indistinguishable from real drums. Roland VDrums have taken a huge step in that direction, but there are still things that need to be done.

'Til the day when you can blindfold a drummer and befuddle him/her with the accuracy of an electronic set, I'll stick to acoustics (hehe, mostly because I can't afford the VDrums...Grr!):lick:

[drumguy]

I agree.. the cymbals have the worst sounds on an electronic kit. And you loose the feel like crazy!!! I'll never play or record on an electronic kit if I can at all avoid it!!!

I like to do alooot of cool tricks that you just can't do with electronics:
Last week I was playing with a pair of yarn mallets in one hand and either a brush, bundle stick, or regular stick in the other hand. So I was doing cymbal rolls and using the mallets on the drums to get all these great sounds. The pair of mallets gave kinda a flammy sound on the drums, but yet really mellowed out. Sounded almost like a djembe when I used them on the snare with the snares off. Great effects!!!

Another time I actually played a part on the snare (snares off) with my hands, and some mallets on the cymbals and stuff.

You can't get effects like a brush scrape, end of the mallet scrape ect.
In soft parts, i'll also do alot of using the different surfaces of a cymbal for different sounds.. sometimes i keep whole beats using a particular bell in place of a bass drum, another in place of a snare, and then the edge of a cymbal in place of the hats.. pretty cool effect.

When I'm playing rock/hardcore music.. I like to "overdrive" my large 18" crash into just a frenzy.. sometimes even my thick 20" ride. There's no way you can reproduce this sound on an electronic kit, because all the crashes are too fast.

So yeah.. I can't stand electronics. I just can't be creative. Sure I can play good on them.. but you loose all the special touches that make you different from every other drummer.

Plus.. the electronic sounds (esp cymbals) never blend well with other instruments. One time I heard electronics with a church orchestra.. man was that ugly.. it sounded SOOO Unnatural, and it was a pretty top-of-the line model too.

So yeah.. gimme the real deal anyday.. even some cheap kit. I'll make it sound better then electronics. (but please don't take away my DW's for a cheap kit).

-Drumguy

[OlyJazzMan]

Drum machines have come a long way in the past few years. Drum machine manufacturers have have developed incredibly realistic sounds that can reproduce almost any kit or set up. What they can't reproduce is the spirit and soul of the drummer!

In reviewing some of the posts, I have read about how producers are beginning to prefer the synthetic sound of drum machines over the real deal. Sadly, I must agree. Although really good producers will use real musicians every time.

I play "Smooth Jazz" and will use a drum machine for writing, Demo CDs, etc., but in the studio I want real musicians!

Roy

[EjbsMusicRoom]

Maybe because I have heard it so much that its starting to sund ok to me but sometimes I prefer the drum module over the actual drummer. I actually like some of my sequenced drums better than what drummers do. I feel that a drum module can sound real if it is given the right effect and also if the individual drums are programmed as a drummer would play them. For example, I never have the hi hat playing with a crash. Even though this is possible, its not something drummers would do. Also some drummers do not play the hi hat with the snare. These programming tricks make sequenced drums more authentic.

There are several songs on my debut CD that I actually triggered modules and there are some songs where I`m using my sequenced drum tracks over a real drummer. I think if you want a certain sound, both methods work individually and together.

I listen to alot of Seal, U2 and Sarah McLachlan where this stuff is going on all the time and I love it. Done properly and both can be used.

Peace,
Ernest

[drumguy]

Funny thing is.. I actually DO hit my crash and hi-hat at the same time fairly often. I think it's because I'm a lefty drummer (i play open rather then crossed) so alot of times I'll crash with my rh, while the lh is still going steady on the hi-hat.. of course.. the crash pretty much covers up the hi-hat sound.
Either way.. thought that might amuse you.

[Chris Jude]

Wow, what a great microcosm of countless discussion on this that I've read/been involved in. I think most of the popular points have already been covered, but I'll add my two cents.

The functionality of modern drum modules is pretty good. The sound quality is 20 years old. It would be interesting to see a manufacturer put out a drum module that allowed you to load high quality samples and that boasts enough memory to deal with them with realistic decays and no artifacts.

The drums themselves have come a long way. Woven heads are a great step, but the Roland can be bettered (and I own a hugely upgraded expanded V-Session kit among other things). MIDI triggering is a bit slow, but the main player doing (better) analog triggering offsets that benefit with numerous other shortcomings and compatibility problems.

Although I consider myself a primarily acoustic drummer, I have tested (and test) most popular electronic percussion gear and own a fair bit of it. My latest (electronic) kits are a hybrid of technologies and can trigger sound sources from hardware and software samplers, a Roland TD-10 with TDW-1 expansion, a ddrum3 module, a ddrum4 module, drum machines and even a couple of my keyboard modules. I have kits that are actually combinations that may use some or all of these. On one "kit" the tom sounds may be coming from a sampler, on the next maybe they are from a module, etc. It is all synced via MIDI.

While I couldn't agree more with the comments about how many more subtle nuances can be coaxed from acoustic percussion instruments like ride cymbals, I would qualify that with the assertion that electronic drums are to the point where it is physically possible to employ them in many (perhaps most) types of music with professionally viable results. In fact the benefits (it could be argued) are great, while the shortcomings (it could be argued) are all but indistinguishable in many many contexts. However, to get those kind of results isn't exactly cheap. Even though I can give all my nice mics a rest, the sampler(s), module(s), pad-to-MIDI interface(s), computer and software that must replace them (to achieve a professional result) may be a little out of sight for most hobbyists, while a drum kit and some good mics (although you can spend a lot, oh do I know) may not be. Some of that can be eliminated if/when a pro module is developed, but in the meantime the underlying kits are expensive to start with and just making them function on a par with a decent keyboard from a sonic and trigger standpoint, costs thousands more still.

Anyway, in answer to the original question, yes, I think it is (technically) possible, with a little know how and a bunch of gear to now make electronic drums a completely valid alternative in many contexts even for professional recording applications. Once you have the "right" stuff, you have an infinite number of sounds and kits and the dividends (digitial, MIDI, no bleed, etc., etc., etc.) are realized. It is not yet a practical alternative across the board yet, (i.e. the jazz example). The interface doesn't lend itself to replicating all the subteties well enough (yet).

The question of whether it will even completely faithfully reproduce the acoustic counterpart is interesting grist for the mill, but frankly I hope not. I think the the technologies exist (continuous sensor fabrics and/or fiberoptics along with improved triggering and 24 bit full length samples) to made an electronic drum that "mimics" its acoustic counterpart as well as a modern keyboard can "mimic" a Steinway grand. Maybe that would be a good start toward dismissing that focus and freeing up people to think more about what electronic percussion can do vs. what it can't.

Great thread everyone.

[>^-..-^<]

This is a great thread. I appreciate the discussion. Here's my 2 cents:
•With a sampled kit, you are are always playing SOMEONE ELSE'S vision of
what a drum kit should sound like. It's never your vision, I mean unless you
manually sample your own acoustic kit, or EQ something to death to get it
where you have your own voice. There are two components to my playing- what I play, and what I'm playing on. I'm kinda' anal about using my own kit because of
this.
•With the pads, you add two extra elements into whether you sound well or not.
These are the SOUNDMAN, and the P.A. No big deal if your in the studio with
someone who knows what they are doing, but in a live situation, this is a bugger.
Many bands, churches, and clubs have soundmen who are just hobbyists that like to tinker, but really don't know what they are doing, or even have 'the ear.' Many times, when checking the levels, if they can at least hear the pads, they are satisfied. Numerous times I had to ask from stage to have the level of a pad raised, because the beat was integral to the feel of the song. The pad was turned up, but nowhere near the soundlevel of the rest of the kit, or even the rest of the band. And playing in church on pads? Yikes! When you see the drummer and hear the sound of stick on rubber above the sound of the sample because Joe the tin-eared soundman & storm door salesman is performing his "ministry" every Sunday?
Then a band will often run the samples are maybe run through mains that should really be monitors - 10" or 12" woofers trying to mimic a bass drum? blecch!

I guess in the studio, or with a band that has decent PA and a competent soundman, the pads are great. But a majority of playing situations with us poorer musicians only show the rubber drums' shortcomings. I know that my acoustics will sound great every time, and their volume levels are instantly adjustable - by the drummer

[Ted]

I think electronic drums can actually make life easier for the soundman, especially the less-skilled ones...pretty much plug it in and go, where it's pretty easy to screw up the sound of a good kit if you don't mike it up right. Most electronic drumsets also give you individual volume control from the drum brain, so the drummer can control that as well.

As for not being ablr to get your own sound on an electronic kit, I don't think that's the case these days as much as it used to be. With the Roland kits especially you can really tweak your sounds just the way you want them, beyond what any acoustic kit I've ever seen can do.

The biggest shortcoming in my opinion is they're still not quite as expressive as an acoustic kit (especially the cymbals), but they've come a long way from the Simmons kit I bought back in 1986. A lot of times the added flexibility seems to outweigh the drawbacks...

-Ted

[EphICanIMite]

Well, here's my $ .02 worth.....

I believe there is room in the world for both types depending on music styles, whether recorded or live and if live, what the venue.

On electronic drums there is the ability to quickly substitue drum sounds, tuning effect etc. Also, one of the big reasons i've heard in live applications that favor electronic drums is in the case of... hmmm... "lesser experience drummers (i.e. drummers, not musicians) that may not fully appreciate dynamics or good judgement in their playing. Additionally, for players that may not be as accomplished, recording by midi, then fixing the mistakes is certainly an appealing factor.

On acoustics... man, they just have... soul? Feeling? I don't really know how to describe it verbally, but they just have personality. Or maybe the just better express the personality of the player. I just recently upgraded to a new set of dw drums and am having so much fun just playing the darn things. And if a drummer is aware of the intended feeling of the song being played, with the use of various stick sizes, tips, materials and specialty sticks like hot rods... all kinds of expressive sounds can be had.

In other words, there's a place for both types of drums in this world... can't we all just get along? <~~ sarcasm

EPH

[>^-..-^<]

I would agree, for newer drummers who don't know how to control the dynamics and volume of their kit, an outside volume knob is probably needed. For seasoned drummers, this isn't necessary.

But in live situations, short of the big arenas, I might dare venture to say I have NEVER heard electronic drums that were mixed right. In your weekend giggers, too many soundmen just DON'T know what they're doing, and/or don't have the equipment necessary to do the pads justice. In churches, this problem is doubled. How many churches employ a professional sound man? The most responsive pads and and intuitive drum brains in the world don't mean a thing if all you hear is stick on rubber above the sample through the mains.

Also, in a majority of small playing situations, the drums don't even NEED to be miked, leaving one less channel for an inexperienced soundman to mess up, and a lot less load on the PA system.

Like I said, in a studio, or with a band that has the professional gear and and the competent soundman to back it up, the rubber drums are fine. But for Joe weekend gigger, the pads just sound like a bad flashback to the eighties.