Motu 828 VS. Presonus Firestation

[mkatz9267]

Is there anyone out there who has tried and compared these two units? I am in the market for an audio interface for my Mac G4, running Logic and would love to have the preamps of the presonus, but I'm wondering how the firestation is as a total audio interface. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[MostlyCranky]

You can download and read the user docs for the Presonus and do some comparison. I think the 828 is more robust. Plus, if you can stand MOTU (some love 'em, others less enthusiastic) their products in this space are a lot more mature and less apt to force a compromise.

[DigitalSynthesis]

I took a good look at the Firestation user manual (I own an 828, and wanted to see the difference). I found the following:

1. The Firestation cannot record to the host PC using both ADAT and analog inputs simultaneously. It also appears that the outputs are not independent either (e.g. you can't output something different on ADAT channel #1 and Analog channel #1 from your PC under normal circumstances).

2. The Firestation appears to have no gain control over the analog inputs EXCEPT for channels 1 and 2. The other knobs are mix (output) levels only.

3. The Firestation does have some unique features such as a MIDI interface, the tube section (a 12AX7 tube per input channel), and MLan support, and a more flexible hardware mixer.

For me, the kicker was that I can't record using all 18 inputs simultaneously. I use my MOTU for a lot of serious multi-channel tracking (from an entire live band to a studio-mic'd drum kit), so I need that flexibility. Plus, my Presonus Digimax LT unit feeds it, so I want to use those mic pre's in addition to the other features. For me, the firestation wouldn't be useful at all. However, it seems to be targeted for the "home studio" market, where it's one or two functions (such as analog recording, MIDI, or MLan stuff) go on typically and the "advanced" functions such as digital I/O are used in certain, specific instances. It also seems to be designed to have a mixing board out front, to set the gain levels for the analog inputs, etc... it is certainly an odd combination of functions, something I wasn't exactly expecting from Presonus, whose gear I usually find nearly perfectly engineered (I own both the ACP88 and the Digimax LT). But on the whole there are some unique and useful features that set it apart.

If I'm wrong on any of this info, PLEASE let me know!! I got this from my interpretation of the user manual, and it may be that I missed something, but AFAIK its all correct.

Peace,

-- Daniel
<><

[Kurzrep]

Daniel,
Most of your comments about the firestation are correct. It is ONLY an 8 channel unit. The ADAT and Analog signal paths are hardwired together and do not function independently. Other than that, I think the Firestation sounds better, has better preamps and also has MIDI. For a small studio, the mixer is very handy. mLan is also a very cool and exciting technology and it seems many manufacturers are beginning to support it. :)

After trying both the 828 and Firestation, I finally got the RME Multiface and I'm very happy with it.

[Ernie5]

Do you need separate A/D & D/A w/Multiface?

[Kurzrep]

The Multiface has a software mixer that allows you to patch any input to any output with no latency. So any analog input can be routed to any digital output and vice versa. Unlike the Firestation, the computer has to be connected for it to function as a converter.

[sanskrit]

hi,

i spent about 1 hour on the phone with both presonus and motu.
i've asked them practically every question i could think of.

for me it boiled down to this. i do almost all my recording on the
field. a lot of live stuff for small bands. basically i need a system
that is going to record and at the same time be fairly reliable.

after looking into it seriously, the firestation seems to be the best
deal for me. reason is that it's the only one of the firestation
products that has a built in analog mixer. now mind you it's not a fantasic
mixer, but it's a mixer that can work without a computer attached
to it.

so if i am recording a live concert, and my computer suddenly
crashed on me, or someone trips on a power cord or something,
i don't have to worry since the signal going to the stage monitors,
the pa, and the tape deck is unaffected. this was a crucial point
in my decision and while i still haven't purchased a product yet, i
think the presonus will do it for me. a lot of people here have posted
that they have used the 828 and 896 motu's with no crashes in 6 months.
but my past experience has taught me that when you really need something, is usually when it tends to break on you. hope this helps.

[PRESONUS Dustin]

If look at the spec of both units they are about the same.The biggest difference is the sound quality. The Firestation when hooked up side by side with 828 smokes it. The overall level,quality of sound,and contruction is better.Not to mention we have tube pre-amps

DUSTIN

[realkuhl]

Originally posted by PRESONUS Dustin
If look at the spec of both units they are about the same.The biggest difference is the sound quality. The Firestation when hooked up side by side with 828 smokes it. The overall level,quality of sound,and contruction is better.Not to mention we have tube pre-amps

DUSTIN

OK, heres the situation for me - I'm looking at both the 828 and the FIREstation right now. I have a live show on 10/30 and plan to use my iBook to play my tracks while having my singer be routed in thru the tube pre - thru Logic 5.3 and sent to a different output than the Mix going to the mixing console (stereo plus Kick and Bass = 4 outputs of music + 1 stereo output for the Vocals = 6 outputs total). I plan to have VST processing done in realtime to the vocal channel via aux busses in Logic -

Can I do this with the FIREstation with zero latency on the vocal input ??

Is the FIREstation compatible with Logic 5.3 today ??

I love the expandable AD/DA ability so that when I'm not doing live shows, I could realistically route 8 analog out to my FX boxes, route them back to the 8 analog inputs which would then be routed to Logic BY ADAT into my Digiface for real-time effect routing.... Can I also do this ?? If no, will it ever or is this a limitation in hardware ??

:classic:

If yes to all the above I'll order it ASAP from the store I do biz with.

Thanks in advance Dustin... I might email this personally to you via the PreSonus web site as well. I really hope this can suite my needs - this insn't a "home studio" list of abilities. If it can do the above, then it's a serious contender for my $$$$.

Sincerely,
John Lehmkuhl
:cool:

[DigitalSynthesis]

I'll take your questions in order, RealKuhl...



Can I do this with the FIREstation with zero latency on the vocal input ??


No, you can route the signal DIRECTLY to the outputs with zero latency, but you cannot (by definition) route the signal into your computer (which requires a buffer, hence, latency), process the signal (which requires processing time, hence, latency), and then output the signal to the audio hardware (another buffer) without incurring latency. My experience (with a MOTU 828) is that this is possible to do without *hearing* the latency (just as you run a signal through an Alesis Q20 without hearing the latency that that device makes), but you cannot do it with identically zero latency. I would assume that the Firestation drivers are as capable as the MOTU drivers to do this with sub-audible latency (in other words, virtual realtime).



Is the FIREstation compatible with Logic 5.3 today ??


I would assume so since they mention shipping with ASIO drivers which are indeed compatible. I personally use Logic 5.3 Platinum myself.



I love the expandable AD/DA ability so that when I'm not doing live shows, I could realistically route 8 analog out to my FX boxes, route them back to the 8 analog inputs which would then be routed to Logic BY ADAT into my Digiface for real-time effect routing.... Can I also do this ?? If no, will it ever or is this a limitation in hardware ??


Weeellll, on the Firestation, no. Not as you describe it. You can ONLY run a maximum of 8 channels in or out at the same time. You can do this on different formats, e.g. the same 8 channels that go out via analog also go out via ADAT, OR you can route analog to ADAT direct (in analog, out adat, and vv.), but you cannot output one signal out the analog and a different (e.g. processed) signal out the ADAT simultaneously. This is a hardware design, apparently.

I would strongly recommend you go to Presonus' website and read the manual for the Firestation. If it does not describe exactly what you are trying to do, then chances are the box cannot do what you want.

However, its a very capable, versatile, 8-channel-only unit which may be very useful to you in other ways. Be sure to read the rest of this thread (from the top) to get the complete info, as some of what I'm posting now has already been said.

I don't work for Presonus but according to what I've heard, read in the manual, and received as an answer directly from them, this should be correct.

Peace...

[Niili]

I'm about to buy me self a firewire audio interface. Im sitting here with a Dell laptop,Windows 2000 pro, adaptec pc-card firewire connection. I have almost decided to buy the Motu 828, but to be honest, Im little bit concerned about the lack of or the PC/Windows support.

Doesn't Presonus Firestations have Windows 2000 drivers?
I don't wanna upgrade to XP.

Since the Presonus Firestation just got out, there isn't so many reviews out there yet.

Most likely I going to buy one of these 3 devices:
1. Motu 828
2. Presonus Firestation
3. Hammerfall DSP Multiface

I rank them in that order. Is there somebody who think I should re-arrange the order, before I run the store....

Thanx

[sanskrit]

hi,

tried all 3, i like rme the best. i would rank your order backwards.
first of all, RME is NOT firewire. it uses the same cable, but it uses
a proprietory electronic signal that is completely different from
firewire.

why rme ?
(1) rme works with all windows OS's
(2) AD/DA convertors are suberb in comparison to other 2
(3) rme has the lowest latency in ASIO
(4) very stable software drivers, used for 1 week continously
without ever getting a crash once !
why not rme ?
(1) not firewire
(2) need their pci card or laptop card to use it
(3) unit cannot be rack mounted out of the box.

why firestation ?
(1) built like a tank
(2) has beautiful XLR mic pre's built in
(3) has built in analog mixer which works independent of computer
(reduces latency)
why not firestation ?
(1) mLan driver is very processor intensive, you need a very good
desktop or extremely powerful laptop (like 2 Ghz P4) to make sure
it works well.
(2) software is still a little buggy (in my opinion), cubase crashed on me
a couple of times when pushed hard.
(3) good tech support, but a bit overwhelmed considering how many
of these they have been selling.

why motu ?
(1) been around for a while and one of the first firewire based interfaces
so they have experience
(2) comes with software for the mac
(3) drivers seem to be more user friendly than presonus
why not motu ?
(1) POOR tech support in general
(2) mediocre ADA convertors in comparison
(3) XLR mic pre's nowhere as good as presonus
(4) MAJOR incompatibilities with some firewire chips


generally all these products have been fine tuned to work better on a mac
it seems. i've been through weeks of hardache with each one of these. finally kept rme. good luck.

[sanskrit]

almost forgot,

firestation will NOT work on any OS, except Win XP and above.

[sanskrit]

and i've heard from other users, many of the motus and firestation
have problems when coupled with external firewire drives and/or
used in configurations of 2 or more (in other words two 828's). I cannot
confirm or deny these, just what i've heard.

[envoid]

If it's any help - among other hardware pieces, my DAW consists of 2 MOTU2408mkII's, and a Midi TimepieceAVP - all running on Win2K. Without a glitch or problem for 2 years. I've only needed to call MOTU support once in all of this time, and it was a painless and pleasant call - contrary to the rumors of non-existent customer service for Windows users....:smokin:

[xstatic]

I have both a Motu and an RME in my tower. Never had a problem with either, until I upgraded my motherboard. MOTU treated me horribly as far as tech support went. They actually wanted me to send them my whole tower so they could find out what the problem was. So, I bought myself an RME so I would not have to wait a month for MOTU. Since then I have gotten another newer motherboard, now the MOTU works again, and the RME. POint is, Neither of my cards have ever actually crashed, turns out I discovered a rare MOTU problem that they did not even know about. But, my 2408 has never crashed, neither has my RME. Take care of your toys and they wont crash, but remember, even the Firestation can crash. In my opinion, the best unit to go with for live sound recording, is the unit which will pass audio when it is powered off. I know an RME wont because it needs the PCI card link to function, I have a feeling the MOTU wont pass signal, But I recently helped someone install a Firestation. Just from looking at how they designed it (i.e. mixer functions etc...) it may pass audio through when powered down, at least it will, I believe, if the MLan cable comes unplugged. In live situations, these can be very real important factors. If anybody knows about this, let me know? I have actually thought briefly about adding a firestation to each of my ADATS. Tx:)

[Niili]

Thanx Sanskrit for the recommendation.

Seems like which audio interface I buy, Im facing some kind of problems. Which is strange for a device that cost about $1100 (in sweden, they are more expensive here :-(.
And for example Motu 828, in all the reviews its getting the highest rates.

Anyway, most likely Im buying something that enables me to plug-and-record pretty easy.

Is Firewire becoming some kind standard?
In that case, RME, which seems to be something for Laptop + PC users, is not an option.

And how hard can it be to make Win2000 drivers for the Firestation.

Niili

[sanskrit]

hi,

presonus firestation uses the new YAMAHA mLAN driver system.
actually presonus does not write the drivers. Yamaha supposedly
had an mLAN driver for windows 98, but I've never seen it anywhere
on the internet.

[Gabriel Sousa]

hello ppl, and about the new MOTU 2408mk3 ??

i didnt know about Hammerfall DSP Multiface .

know i dont know what to buy, the 2408mk3 or the firesation.

thanks

[diecidue]

I am in the same boat as a lot of you. I am looking to purchase the MOTU or Presonus firewire interfaces. I have been going back and forth. The biggest problem that I see with the Presonus Firestation for me is this:

It only supports 2 tracks for Sonar. On there website, it sais that because you need to use the WDM drivers with Sonar, you will only get 2 simultaneous tracks. That is a big show stopper for me.

Does anyone know when they will fix this?

[chasmo4]

i just wanted thank everyone for their experience. i've been kicking around these 2 items, leaning towards the MOTU, simply because it's MOTU and the included Mac software. after reading the comparisons, i'm now leaning towards the firestation due to the pres. does anyone know if there's recording software included w/ the firestation.; or better yet does anyone know if Protools works with the Firestation?? i do all my editing in Protools4.3. i wish to use one of these units to record my band in live situations with my mac laptop. thanx again for everything so far.

[Marko]

Yes, I too am weighing my options between the MOTU and Firestation, but here's my main issue: while in my mind the Firestation seems to have a little more bang for the buck, I'm running OSX on my powerbook G4. When is Presonus going to get their drivers ready, and do I really want to be a virtual "beta-tester" with their first version for OSX? MOTU and Mac just sounds easier. I'd really appreciate any responses to this issue, seeing that nobody has brought it up. Thanks and thanks.

[chasmo4]

well, i bought the MOTU and took it back 2 days later. wouldn't work with my pismo (well i could get 2 clean tracks, about 4 noisy tracks) but $700 for a 2-track system was too much. i ordered the magma cb2......i'm gonna stick to protools. but thanks again to everyone for their time.

[SpyderKiller]

I recently purchased the Firestation and it is awesome, except when you record with more than 2 inputs, then it starts skipping and stuff..i think its cause my laptop is to slow prob....I'm running a inspiron 8100, 512mb,20gigs, P3 1.ghz, and using CUBASE SX. If there is anybody who is having the same problems please Post. thx

[SherrKhann]

I recently acquired Presonus FireStation. To my dissapointment it does not work with my laptop computer (HP zt1175). It seems like there's an issue with VIA Apollo chipset. I spent an hour with Presonus tech-support, to no avail, I must add. It was suggested that the problem might be the faulty chip inside Presonus hardware. I exchanged the FireStation, reinstalled Windows XP, etc. and tried connecting FireStation again...with similar results. I managed to get occasional sound from SoundForge via WDM or some indicator movement in Cubase. Clicks, pops, loss of mLan connection were among the problems I encountered. We tried every possible buffer setting and configuration.

FireStation performs flawlessly with my desktop workstation, however.

The big issue for me at the moment is inability to make digital transfers via SPDIF to SoundForge or WaveLab, since WDM is using ports 01-02, and digital inputs on Presonus are on ports 07-08. It is not possible to route appropriate inputs and outputs in mLan patchbay. I was assured that multichannel WDM driver is coming out within a week or so.

Hopefully guys in Yamaha will pull themselves together and they will come out with some worthy user interface and drivers. Meanwhile we have to keep on jumping from mLan patchbay to controll pannel and back. Is it so difficult to put those two together?.

Software seems to be the biggest issue at the moment. It is a complete mismatch to the solid Presonus hardware. All those "beautiful preamps", "brushed aluminum faceplate" with its blinking lights and signature blue knobs are as good as the software that connects all of them to our computers.

I wrote and designed some software myself, and seeing mLan control pannel makes me think that it was written by somebody else but programmers. "You had better execute APPLY before UPDATE" message box or something like "????????? ???" tells me something about Yamaha "programmers".

[SherrKhann]

Some other issues came up while trying Presonus FireStation. If the unit was tested on the Mac and certain settings were made on mLan patchbay WordClock page, the unit may be rendered unusable on PC. It is due to some non volatile chip inside Presonus piece that is locked to Mac master clock settings. You will simply have no Slave settings on your WCLK setup. That can be very annoying. I have gone through two FireStations in 5 days. It seems I'm going back to 828.

[yoyomama]

As many have been saying recently, Firestation doesn't really support Windows at all. Basically, you start off with a driver install nightmare and then proceed on to really crappy sound unless you're willing to stick with just the two WDM channels provided. If you're hoping to use ASIO forget it, MLan only supports ASIO 1 and pretty much every piece of current software for XP uses ASIO 2. Even Cubase has moved on to ASIO 2 with SX so you're stuck with Cubase VST if you have a copy, and I can't really promise that this works either. I spoke with some very touchy tech support people at Presonus who basically agreed that they released the thing too soon for XP and were screwing people over.

If you buy it for windows you're basically paying 900 bucks for a piece of hardware you can't use until Yahama gets off their duff to write some newer drivers. P.S. Don't hold your breath....

[paulheu]

Originally posted by yoyomama
As many have been saying recently, Firestation doesn't really support Windows at all. Basically, you start off with a driver install nightmare and then proceed on to really crappy sound unless you're willing to stick with just the two WDM channels provided. If you're hoping to use ASIO forget it, MLan only supports ASIO 1 and pretty much every piece of current software for XP uses ASIO 2.

Weird, I own a firestation and use it with Samplitude7 without a hitch.
Recording 8 tracks on my laptop without hickups or other problems.

Driver install was painless and everything worked the first time around.

[earlmcqueen]

I'm a little confused about firestation not being supported on XP. I have a firestion, run XP and Cubase SL and can input 8 channels through ASIO without a problem. I'm fairly certain that asio 2 is downwardly compatible with asio 1 so any software that has ASIO drivers should work fine. Somebody mentioned crappy sound and I really haven't noticed anything "crappy" with the asio inputs. Haven't tried the WDM drivers as a benchmark, though. If I am wrong, please tell me but as far as I can tell the Firestation works just fine with XP and Cubase.