Help! Newbie needs help - how 2 best use my compact mixer

[kelitupu]

Hello all,

Thanks in advance for your help. This is somewhat long, so your patience is greatly appreciated.

I'm a novice recorder trying to figure out the best way to get in and of my mixer -- specifically, I'd like to be able to monitor effects AND my MIDI synth while recording my vocals (or any other signal, guitar, bass, whatever).

My specs:
Recording on a MAC466 with 796RAM
Soundcard: Delta 44 (4 in, 4 out)

1) Right now, I'm going out of my mixer Alt 3-4 bus into 1-2 of my soundcard.

2) I'm feeding my monitors with the mixer main outs.

3) I'm sending mixer Aux send 1-2 into Delta cards 3-4 Ins.

4) I'm going out of Delta 1-2 into channels 3-4 of mixer (monitor vocals)

5) I'm going out of Delta 3-4 into mixer channels 7-8.

6) I'm going from my MIDI Synth (a JV1010) into Channels 5-6 of mixer.


That's working fine for recording vocals.

Now I want to monitor effects (using my software, Logic Platinum 4.8), and I don't quite understand how to get in and out of my mixer to return the effects signal. I'm aware that I can use my Aux Sends going to an outboard effects processor, but I'd like to be able to monitor live with my software--at least for now.

I can get monitor effects using my software (Logic) when I'm not recording, but because of the way I have it set up (using the Alt 3-4), it interrupts the signal flow going to my MAC, so that's why I can't do both at the same time. Or that's what I think.

Should I go from the Main outs into 1-2 of my Delta, and out of mixer alt 3-4 into 3-4 of my Delta? If I did that, could I feed the monitors
using the addition XLR outs behind my mixer? Or am I begging for a feedback loop here somewhere?

I've pasted my mixer specs below.

Thanks again in advance, and sorry if this is an annoying newbie question.

Channel inputs 12
Mono channels 4
Stereo channels 4
Subgroups 2+2
INVISIBLE MIC PREAMPS 4
EQ (mono channels) 3-band plus low-cut
Aux sends 2
Stereo aux returns 2
2-track input/output 1
Phantom power +48 V
Rack-mounting kit included

[TeeCee]

A few questions with almost irelevent answers:

What model is the mixer?
Why did you cross the aux's and Delta ins?
Why did you separate the Delta outs?
Are you just trying to confuse us or is this a mixer IQ test?

Don't take any of that seriously. Real questions (that could invalidate my current solution).

Are you trying to monitor hardware FX or PC FX? I am assuming that you are trying to monitor hardware FX.
I see two mono aux sends and two stereo sub groups. Is the main out independent of both subgroups? I am assuming that it is not.
Are you playing audio parts on the PC while you are recording/monitoring?

Split the main to your monitors and the Delta 1+2 whatever way you have two (either independent outs from the board or buy/make a splitting cable) and for our purposes tie it to subgroup 1. Send subgroup two to the Delta 3+4. Send your Aux 1/2/1+2 whatever you need to your hardware FX. Record on Delta 3+4 while you monitor the FX in the main mix.

I reserve the right to alter my solution after I understand your specific needs better. If your mixer is a Mackie, the book that comes with it (looks like a big tabloid) shows you several methods for connecting their mixers in a studio.

Good luck,

[TeeCee]

Refining my questions:

I'm missing the over all picture of what you are trying to do. I now know that you want to monitor FX applied in Logic. I'll try to spell out what I am trying to get from you.

Where is your source material at when you want to monitor these FX? I need to know the peripheral details of the situation so to speak. Are you singing/talking or playing through the mixer and you want to hear what you are recording with FX applied? There are a few caveats to that situation that I'll get into after you explain whether or not that's what you want to do. Are you doing this to reference tracks being played back from the PC? I need the whole picture of what you are trying to do. All material to be played back or performed, where it's at (PC or hardware), etc. There are many ways to set up a studio mixer. The mixer set up is a major defining part of your studio and depends exactly on how you want to work.

[kelitupu]

Hey Tc, thanks for bearing with me


I want to be able to monitor effects while recording a dry signal. Effects when I play back are no problem right now...I can hear and adjust those no problem.

When I plug my mic into mixer and sing (listening through headphones), I hear effects. As soon as I hit arm a track and record in Logic, I lose the effect.

I think as you pointed out earlier, I need to go out of my main outs into 1&2 instead of feeding the monitors with the main outs. I can feed the main outs with the XLR outs.

This is how I understand the "signal flow" of what I'm doing right now. To monitor effects using software (NOT hardware), I have to treat my sequencer as the outboard processor. In otherwords, the signal must go from the computer into the mixer, than back into the computer. Is that right?

eh, I'm confused now,

thanks again

[TeeCee]

Well, you may not like this answer.

It's all software and It's stuff I don't do. I don't use Logic. I don't software preview. I don't sing. I don't use much software FX. It's not a hardware routing issue if you hear exactly what you want to hear through the computer but Logic drops the FX as soon as you start recording. It's a Logic issue.

-But Maybe-

It's an option in logic. You can RTFM (Read The uh-uhm Manual) again and again and again, try a Logic specific forum, or you can contact Logic.

-Or- My Potential Hack

I don't know about your mixer and whether or not the mains are tied to one or both of the stereo pairs. I'm assuming that it is and we have it tied to pair 1+2. *Important* If the mains are 100% independent of the stereo outs, you have more recording options.

Set two tracks up in Logic pointing at Delta ins 1+2 (mixer outputs 3+4 the way you had it set up). Hopefully you can tie them both to the same audio in. Monitor one with FX and and record on the other. Send your vocal only to mixer outs 3+4. Send your Delta audio outs to mixer outs 1+2. You will not hear the track that is being recorded but you should hear what it hears with the FX added (assuming that the FX on the monitor track is not 100% wet). You may get a nasty time delay (which is one of the caveats I alluded to earlier). You can send the vocal to mixer outs 1+2 in addition to outs 3+4. This may help deal with any computer latency, but you may not hear exactly what is being recorded. Any latency will cause the effect to be delayed.

My mixer configuration may clear things up for you but will not allow you to do the above any easier. Let me know how it works out.

The way I see it, to send the signal through the computer, back to the computer is not necessary unless you want to record exactly what you hear as you hear it. Instead, you can add the FX later in software.

Also, excuse any PC references you may see as I am in a PC world. For the purposes hear, they are both just computers (I even use a Delta 66 and an Audiophile 24/96 in my two music PCs).

Good luck,

[TeeCee]

So, is it working for you yet?

[kelitupu]

Hi T.C.,

Well, the short answer is no. The long answer is, I got reverb coming out of my mixer while recording -- but not monitoring. I was actually recording the reverb. And I didn't have control of the reverb in Logic; I could add or subtract using my sub-faders, but when I tried changing the reverb parameters in Logic, nothing really changed.


I tried yours and any number of suggestions for rerouting my signal flow, and initially (not when I did yours), I was getting an error in my computer. It crashed, and crashed, and crashed.

Anyhow, I've decidied to just invest in a cheapo-$100 outboard effects processor for monitoring purposes -- I think it's just easier than doing what I was trying to do. Any suggestions towards a good processor would be appreciated.

Thanks so much once again for taking the time that you did in trying to help me along. I really do appreciate it, especially as a novice recording person like myself.

Take care,
Gary

[TeeCee]

Gary,
If you have your mixer routed the way I explained, you should not be recording reverb. It almost sounds like you are recording what you are monitoring instead of monitoring separately from the recording track.

In a nutshell, your signal routing without any mixer specifics:
Signal in to mixer out to the PC.
Software set up on two audio tracks to look at the same audio input.
One track set to record, one track set to monitor with FX.
Monitored signal with FX out of PC in to the mixer out to your monitors.

If you can clear this up once and for all, I may be able to explain the connections better: what are your bus options for your channels? Can you send mixer channels directly to the mains or do they have to go to either 1+2 or 3+4?

As for inexpensive FX processors, I do not require high quality FX for what I do. You can look at the Zoom Studio line - 1201, 1202, 1204. Many will argue that there is no such thing as an inexpensive Reverb. I suggest you start a new thread asking about inexpensive reverbs.

[kelitupu]

Hi TC,

Regarding your question:

What are your bus options for your channels? Can you send mixer channels directly to the mains or do they have to go to either 1+2 or 3+4?

I've been trying to decipher this information in my manual. This is the closest thing I could find. I'm going to include it below for you to read; let me know if that answers your question.

Manual says:

There are no fully-fledged subgroups on the MX1604A. However, the Alt 3-4 bus offers you a second independent stereo submix with its own submaster stereo fader. Combinig the Alt 3-4 outputs with the Main Mix may be effected by activating the Alt 3-4 switch.

Eg., If you want to generate two mono subgroups in addition to the normal Main Mix stereo bus, patch Alt outs 3 and 4 back into two mono channels, and use these as Subgroup masters (the subgroup return channels must not be routed to the Alt 3-4 bus themselves, as this would constitute a feedback loop). Engaging mute on any input channel routes to the Alt 3-4 bus. Channel Pan now selects between Alt outputs 3-4 (left =3, right =4).

Thanks again for taking the time.

Take care,
Gary

[TeeCee]

OK, it sounds like you have Main and also 3+4 as output options from your mixer. So what you need to do is:

Signal in to mixer channels (who cares) sent to submix 3+4 and NOT main.
Mixer Submix Out 3+4 into your PC Ins 1+2.
Software set up on two audio tracks to look at Delta 1+2. One track set to record, one track set to monitor with FX.
Monitored signal with FX routed to Delta Out 1+2 .
Delta Out 1+2 tied to mixer channels (who cares) sent to mixer main and NOT 3+4.
Mixer main outs tied to your monitors.

Do NOT activate the alt 3+4 switch.
Verify in your Delta control panel that outputs 1+2 are only receiving Outputs 1+2 audio, not monitor mixer or anything like that.

That should do it. Let me know how it works out.

[kelitupu]

Hi TC,

I've done the way you said to wire it, but I don't think my mixer can send to feeds simultaneously. I hear reverb in my headphones and can adjust them using the subfaders....but when I arm the track to record in Logic, the signal becomes dry...doesn't that mean I'm interrupting the signal flow to the MAC. I'm including some other info from my manual below for you to read.

Mx1604A Architecture
The configuration is 16 into 4 (2+2) into 2. There are four mono channels, four stereo channels and two stereo Aux returns. In addition there is a 2 Track input routable to the Main mix. A channel is always routed to the Main Mix outs unless Alt3-4 (also the channel mute button) is selected, in which case its signal is sent to outpus 3 and 4 instead. Outputs 3 and 4 may be blended with the Main Mix at the Control Room out via a switch. Beside that the Alt 3-4 can also be fed into the main mix by pressing Alt 3-4 to mix.

I was wondering if maybe I need to use my aux return line inputs and aux sends instead of coming out of the card into one of my regular line channels. Here's what my manual says about the stereo returns:

There are 2 addition stereo line inputs (aux returns 1 and 2) on your MX1604A. Aux return 1 is permanently assigned to the main mix. if you connect a jack to the left socket only, the aux return 1 operates in mono. Aux return 2 can be switched between the main mix cue feed (aux send 1) via a switch marked FX to aux 1. This enables you to provide a wet signal with effect cue mix for the headphones or foldback speakers.

If no connection is made to Aux return 2, the signal is normalled (connected directly) to Aux return 1. Depressing fx to aux 1 will then feed the signal from Aux return 1 into the cue feed (aux send 1) and be controlled independently with aux return 2. this feature is primarily useful when you are using one effect for the main mix and for the foldback speakers.

Sorry if this was too long and thanks again TC.

Gary

[TeeCee]

I hear reverb in my headphones and can adjust them using the subfaders....but when I arm the track to record in Logic, the signal becomes dry...doesn't that mean I'm interrupting the signal flow to the MAC.What are your headphones listening to? Your main? I've been working on the premise that you are monitoring your main through speakers/monitors. If the headphones are listening to your main mix only, then this shouldn't be an issue. Now, Logic cannot break a signal in your mixer to the MAC. Logic is in the MAC and has no control over your mixer. Logic seems to be the problem which means you may not be able to do what you want to do.

Let's verify Logic's setup. You need to have one track set up to record Delta 1+2. If you can, set it's output to Omni 3+4 just to try it. You need to have another channel set up to listen to Delta 1+2 with FX and its output set to Omni 1+2. This track should never be armed.


A channel is always routed to the Main Mix outs unless Alt3-4 (also the channel mute button) is selected, in which case its signal is sent to outpus 3 and 4 instead. Outputs 3 and 4 may be blended with the Main Mix at the Control Room out via a switch. Beside that the Alt 3-4 can also be fed into the main mix by pressing Alt 3-4 to mix.Your signal feeding the mixer to be recorded into the MAC needs to have the Alt3-4 button pressed. No other channel should have this button pressed. The switch at the Control Room Out and the Alt 3-4 to Mix button need to be deselected. The routing should be as in my last post. Try it.

By now, I hope you are starting to understand what we are doing here. You need to understand your mixer so you can understand your options.

Good luck,

[kelitupu]

Eureka! Okay TC, so I'm not going crazy. The reason it never worked is because Logic isn't capable of monitoring live with effects (ie., you can't record a dry signal and use Logic's plug-ings to monitor with reverb). They're working on adding this functionality soon.

The manual doesn't address this specific topic, so I was relying on what people on the Logic user board had told me: which is that it was possible

I finally called Tech Support, and the guy told me that it's not possible.

Anyhow, I just thought I'd let you know. I'm using your suggestion right now for mixer routing, and everything's working fine. I'm going to buy a cheapo effects processor soon.

Thanks again for all your help!

Take care

[TeeCee]

Well, at least it's resolved. The Zoom Studio line's the definition of cheap, but the Sweetwater guys can probably tell you all of your options.