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View Full Version : Production Advice Needed on Classical Violin Recording Project



vienna1897
09-05-2006, 10:46 PM
I'm finding myself in a little bit of a self-induced quandary involving a self-produced recording project for solo violin. This summer, I wanted to record the 12 Fantasy Sonatas for Unaccompanied Violin written in 1735 by the German composer Georg Philip Telemann. I thought it would be interesting to emulate the practice followed by some popular musicians I've known of in the past (Stevie Wonder and Todd Rundgren come to mind) of putting together albums completely on their own, i.e. serving not only as the "talent", but also as recording engineer and producer. Considering the extent to which digital recording has made the process of making recordings so much more accessible, and given that I am reasonably fluent in using a computer, the idea of doing this type of thing with these Telemann pieces seemed interesting and reasonable.

In terms of the particulars directly affecting the product: I'm a Juilliard grad, my playing is in good shape, and I have a fine old French violin. The recording took place in an old New England Church; acoustics there are nicely resonant but not unduly "echoey". For equipment, I used a matched pair of Earthworks QTC40s, a separate 48V phantom power supply, an MBox 2, my Mac iBook G4 and a dedicated 160GB external Hard Drive. After much experimentation, the final microphone placement had the mic stand placed 5 feet in front of me (I was standing in what I had determined to be the room's "sweet spot", with the mics 7 feet high and 15 inches apart from each other, pointed downwards towards me at about a 45 degree angle. The mic gain knobs on the MBox were set at what would be the number "2" on a clock.

My initial reaction to the various microphone placements I tried was a certain shock at the level of "crispness" and detail these microphones reveal; it struck me that they are the aural opposite of the special "warm and fuzzy" lens that is sometimes used when filming actors whose faces have started to show the wrinkles/markings that come with getting older. Everything was there: all the sound, all the vibrancy, but also all the string noise and other "extraneous" noises that one hears when listening to an acoustic instrumentalist up close. The basic performance practice of playing in a way that will project to the back of the hall, even if there is some "grit" up close, seemed at first like it was something to be desperately avoided in this circumstance; I wondered if it was like being an actor who has worked for years in the theater having to adjust his/her style rather radically when doing TV work, so as to avoid the appearance of overacting. I've done plenty of recording before, but of course there was always someone in a booth on the other end making all the necessary adjustments.

At first I found myself backing up the stand so as to lose some of the extraneous playing-related noise, but as I continued I started to find that to some extent, some of that grit is embedded in the essence/vitality of the music-making. In some ways, I started to find that all of that clarity of detail created a type of "warmth" I hadn't quite expected; it was as if a greater level of detail created a fuller picture. The sound wasn't warm in the sense of being lush; instead, it was warm in the sense of being "full" and "rich in detail".

For monitoring (in my case, listening back to takes), I used a pair of Sony Studio Monitor Headphones; considering that I was working in an acoustically resonant church, playing back takes through speakers wasn't going to be helpful. I've continued to use these headphones for editing, and I have been generally quite happy with what I've been hearing. The problem is, whenever I play back what I've recorded and/or edited through speakers (I've tried a number of different speaker pairs, from a pair of Wharfdales to a Boombox to my Car Stereo to the 3-Speaker system that goes with my digital piano), I find myself really disliking what I'm hearing. The recordings sound edgy and non-resonant.

While admitting that I really know very little about recording engineering, I have to say I have been surprised by this result. I would have expected that listening through a good set of headphones to be a sort of "acid test", in which all flaws would be most disturbingly apparent; and yet the recordings sound very vital, nuanced, interesting and even technically more polished (the playing, that is) when listening through headphones. It seems like 70% of the quality evaporates when the recordings are played through speakers.

Clearly, there's something I'm missing here. I find myself wondering if I miscalculated in terms of mic placement, mic gain, or some other equipment-related element. Then again, perhaps I'm learning the hard way that the fine recording engineer is indeed an artist. As musicians, we interact with all sorts of sonic/acoustic environments which can radically change the way our playing is aurally perceived, but we tend to get feedback based on what we hear coming back to us in the room/hall, and adjust accordingly. To an extent, it seems like one of the functions of the engineer is to understand what sort of adjustments may need to be made in the "electronic environment" so that the essence of the playing can be communicated most effectively through medium of RECORDED sound.

I've written this tome because I'm trying to gather input on possible ways to proceed. I suppose I could try starting over again, this time with an engineer in tow, but I truly hate the idea of scrapping everything and going back to the beginning. Or perhaps what I'm experiencing is not unusual, and I could simply do what editing is necessary and then send my sound files to an engineer for final mixing and mastering, who would have the knowledge and equipment to make my files sound well when played back through a reasonably wide variety of equipment. I imagine an exploratory step could be to send a small excerpt (for instance, a three-minute movement) that I have found unsatisfactory when played back through speakers and send it to a studio, asking them (for whatever fee they'd charge, of course) to mix it, master it and send it back to me, as an example of what they could do for all my files.

Any and all thoughts, opinions and suggestion are welcome. Thanks.

Vienna

The Bionic Board
09-06-2006, 06:49 AM
Wow, Juliard... man I could only dream about going there.

Try fattening it up with a nice stereo tube compressor. You are in NYC? Maybe just take your Mac to a mastering facility. They could handle it for you... probably pretty cheap too.

Ok, good luck- post an MP3 maybe sometime when you are done? I would love to hear your work!

Spiritworks
09-06-2006, 08:30 AM
While I have never recorded solo acoustic violin, I have recorded solo acoustic guitar for several clients. I have to admit that I really like extraneous noises such as finger movement, fret noise, callouses across the strings, fingers/hands against the soundboard, even the guitar seeming to squeek while the performer moves it while playing, as the guitar gives life to the sound and the performance is coaxed from the instrument. To me, it's all part of the experience of the performance of a solo acoustic instrument. With a piano, it might be the squeeking of the pedals, the movement of the bench against the floor, or even the sound of the hammers hitting the strings. With a woodwind or brass instrument it might be the mechanics of the keys, or the breathing of the performer. I believe these things all add up to give personality to the recording.
It seems that you are satisfied with the performance. Are the levels good? I would imagine that some very "light" compression, using soft knee release, and some creative use of EQ would help.
I believe the mics you used are awesome for this situation, but they can be somewhat "clinical". Not sure about the pre's in the chain, or the converters. What software did you use on the Mac? Have you considered running the tracks through some analog gear, and mixing to tape?

djui5
09-06-2006, 10:38 PM
It seems like 70% of the quality evaporates when the recordings are played through speakers.
Vienna


This is your mic placement. When played through speakers you are getting these phase cancellations you couldn't hear before because of the isolation of the headphones. That's why you should always record through monitors set up somewhere. Even if you have to gobo yourself off...

vienna1897
09-07-2006, 10:15 AM
Bionic Board, Spiritworks and dgui5,

Thanks very much for taking the time to read my long post and replying to it. The more opinions I gather the more it seems that the first thing to examine is if I've got a phase cancellation problem as a result of faulty mic placement. Djui5, your direct assessment in this regard was compelling. The thing is, I consulted pretty thoroughly with a number of qualified people, including people at the mic manufacturer, about every parameter of mic placement I could think of: distance of the stand from the sound source (me), stand height, mic angles on both the horizontal and vertical planes, and indeed the amount of space between the two mics. On this last parameter I was particularly careful, because it raised the issue of whether or not I needed to by a second mic stand, or just use one stand with a mic bar of sufficient width. I did hear one opinion that the mics should be set numerous feet apart from each other, but it was a minority view.

I'm going to send some of my sound files to an engineer for listening, evaluation and analysis, and I assume that if I have a phase cancellation problem, it will be readily apparent to an engineer.

I have a few questions:

Am I correct in assuming that there can be differing amounts of phase cancellation? If so, what is the threshold at which that amount becomes a problem? Is that judgement made primarily through judging by what one hears, or are electronic/software diagnostic tools used?

Is there a fix for this other than scrapping what I've got and re-recording these pieces?

For an avocational user like me, how would I see phase cancellation as I look at the waveforms in my recorded files? What would it look like? And if I took a CD of a professionally recorded/produced performance of the same music that sounds well through speakers, ripped a file from it, converted it and opened it up in ProTools, how might the waveforms from that performance appear differently if they were placed adjacent to the waveforms from my recordings?

Again, thanks to one and all for your help.

Vienna

michaelhoddy
09-07-2006, 12:51 PM
Compression of any kind is not a good choice for classical music. Fixing stuff in post is always problematic, especially in classical or acoustic work. And yes, your placement is causing phase cancellation. Omni mics, way too close together.

For solo classical instrumental recordings, I usually use a stereo mic or pair farther back in the room as my primary source, and another stereo mic, pair, or a mono spot mic up closer on the instrument.

The stereo mics back in the room provide the majority of the sound, assuming the room is fairly good acoustically. The closer mic (or mics) are blended to taste simply to provide definition and better localization to the source, and only as much as necessary.

Your Earthworks mics would be terrific choices in a spaced pair farther back in the room. For the close mic, I would use something warmer and less clinical. I've had TERRIFIC success using ribbon mics (in my particular case, a Royer R-122) up closer on violin. Lots of body, adequate definition, no harshness. A nice transformer-coupled, unhyped small-diaphragm condenser such as a Neumann KM83 or KM84 would also be a decent choice.

dpd
09-07-2006, 11:12 PM
You'll have a primary (e.g. nearly total) phase cancellation at approximately 440 Hz and every 400 Hz up from there due to your mic spacing (15 " is about 1/2 of a wavelength at 440 Hz) coming from the sides (sides being along a line drawn between the mics). What I would expect if you had a sine wave sound source in the room at the violin location would be a comb filter spaced every 440 Hz would be nulls (little or no net output of a mono mix) with ~ 6 dB peaks every 440 Hz starting around 660 Hz. So, your reflected paths are going to play havoc with the direct sound.

OK, that's a very simplistic analysis, but the concept is, I believe, fundamentally correct. You need to space the mics farther out, IMO. (I think I was one of the minority viewpoints here). Obviously, the interaction with the real room will change the peaks, null depths, etc as real room acoustics are quite messy.

Keep experimenting as you have been. Remember, however, speaker placement in a real room is very much an analog to mic placement, ntroducing another set of hard to control variables into the 'mix'.

good luck!

djui5
09-27-2006, 03:52 AM
Am I correct in assuming that there can be differing amounts of phase cancellation?


Yes



If so, what is the threshold at which that amount becomes a problem? Is that judgement made primarily through judging by what one hears, or are electronic/software diagnostic tools used?


Your ears are your friend :) When you learn to hear it, you'll learn to avoid it.



Is there a fix for this other than scrapping what I've got and re-recording these pieces?


You might be able to get a mix engineer or mastering engineer to do some surgical eqing. By surgical I mean a super small bandwidth (Q) boost or cut at your problem areas can help some, but no matter what it was recorded that way and there is no way to "undo" it.




For an avocational user like me, how would I see phase cancellation as I look at the waveforms in my recorded files? What would it look like?
Vienna

You can't really see it. You should learn to hear it with your ears, and never record with just headphones on. Always set up a pair of speakers to prevent this problem.

Aldan Joshua
10-06-2006, 08:27 PM
As a professional recording engineer for the past 30 years, I can't add too much to this thread, except the following.

I've recorded the Doobie Brothers, John Lennon, Peter Paul and Mary and Jean Luc Ponty and Christopher Parkening, among countless other orchestral performers.

I am a pro - not an afficionado with a manual, a room in mom & dad's house and a web site - so consider that in my advice.

My suggestion is to alleviate the pressure from the bits and bites, jargon and tedious details about manufacturer product - get back to your ear. I see more and more people getting into recording at home or in their parent's basement, setting up a web site, and then calling themselves and pretending to be "pros."

In the case of the comments from SpiritWorks about this thread, it is plain to see that this cat is a fledgling who simply doesn't understand classical music recording. However, Mr. SpiritWorks should serve as a Caveat Emptor to all those on this thread and that is to thoroughly check out and investigate the person recording your sound - if he's a plumber or an accountant by day, spend a few bucks more and go to a pro for advice and recording. It'll be worth it.

Aldan Joshua
10-06-2006, 08:41 PM
Something else that you may find useful is a quick story about Phil Specter and Motown recording. Specter used to playback his recordings through a car speaker to determine how the listener - notice I said listener and not engineer- would hear the sound.

Access to all this technology by more of us is of couse a wonderful thing. But when it becomes like killing a mosquito with an elephant gun it can work against you.

The finer you look at your sound the more you will find fault with it. That is often a very good thing. However, it can cause you to toss out a great performance. First and foremost is the performance! As an artist and a Juliard Grad, you know that - of that I am sure from your articulate posting.

The best thing for you to do is bring your recording to someone with both and ear and an engineering background. This is your project. This is your sound. This is your thing.