Pentium 4 vs AMD ?

[yagan]

i'm looking at getting a new computer for sequencing and hard-disk recording. i've been told that with the soundcard i'm looking at getting (a m audio delta) that i should go all intel- cpu and motherboard because amd's are problematic with this card.

is this the case?

also i've also been told to run windows 98 instead of 2k. i was wondering y this would be better?

[AcousticPro]

The issue goes much deeper than this. Most AMD processors are using a VIA chipset of some sort which is very inefficient in the way it gets information across the PCI bus. If you insist on going PC I wouldn't recommend going down this road. I'm still curious as to why everyone insists on heading this direction of spending time learning how all this gear works instead of working on the music it's designed to help create. Make sure you plan your focus. If you want to go into business and do what Sweetwater does researching this stuff all the time then do so. It is my opinion that if you want to do music then do so, otherwise you will always be mediocre, good at best, at both quite frankly.

[Lrnzo]

I am running an AMD Athlon 1.4G on a Via KT133 chipset. My recording project has been up and running for a short time with Logic 4.8. There have been various problems. Shall I throw my cpu out with the bathwater(mainboard) or salvage my processor with a recommended mainboard and chipset...if any exist?

[Gill_Boyd]

It's not the CPU, Chipsets Rule!

Chipsets supporting AMD cpu's are getting better. And the KT133 chipset was problematic even with certain versions of Zip Drives' firmware which showed as a software problem. Go figure?

Your AMD Athlon is fine! And yes we read the piece out of Germany discussing the Via Chipsets. Always make sure you have the latest Via 4-in-1 Drivers.

You just need a different M/B. Here's what we're currently testing and no, it's NOT the fastest M/B out there! We do not have the final answer yet but everything looks good so far:
http://www.buildorbuy.net/jwhinery/xls/ifiwere_2.html

Giga-Byte GA-7VTX H+ M/B. If your gear can handle Win2000, do it! Only reason not to I've seen not to use Win2000 is data from EgoSys.net regarding 24 bit / 96 kHz. They claim with their E-WDM drivers, YES in Win98SE and NO in Win2000. Figure that one out.

Not sure yet if what EgoSys says is true yet of Win2000. No one from EgoSys has responded to our inquiries yet. Guess we won't buy anything from EgoSys? No one else makes those claims as far as we can surmise.

Now for your Athlon cpu, was that one of those early ceramic cpu's? Careful, they crack easy! We should know - ugh! And... you'll need some new Thermal Compound to reseat your cpu onto a new M/B. The Thermal tape on the cpu is only good one time. Heat activates it.

Asus has a reputatin for making excellent M/B's. They top the list in sales for 2001. We use Giga-Byte more than any others due to a lower problem rate than any others we've tried over the years. Our comfort zone.

We did some research some time ago when most of the ProAudio interfaces were using Motorola DSP's and we saw lost of problems. No one @ that time would claim responsibility. Lots of blame. Solution then, wait!

What's your M/B Brand?

[Lrnzo]

Gill thanks for the hope, here is the rundown.
Asus A7v KT133
Athlon T-bird 1.4G
512MB PC133 (was 768 until I heard Win98 doesnt support it)
IBM 7200 30G, WD 7200 60G in 9G partitions (audio)
Radeon VE 32M dual VGA
Was using WinXP, reverted to 98
Aardvark Q10
Logic Platinum(just upgraded),Acid 3

After reading and following the PC optomizing guide (courtasy of Sweetwater-Thanks Guys!) I am able to record 6 drum tracks simultaneously with no errors! My PCI efficiency however drops from 82% to 44% during recording. The Q10 manual reports this may be ok but hmmm. Could be Via at work? Also I have to limit my stereo ins to 4 and stereo outs to 1-2 on the Q10, or else distortion is all I get for Audio?

I still need to test more, but so far its looking good for me! However Id rather have an optomized board.

[Gill_Boyd]

Keep your RAM intact. Even though Win98SE may not use it, you apps will! Yes, I'd say, could be a Via chipset problem although I'd make sure you have their latest 4-in-1 drivers.

Can you record 8 tracks since doing the Sweetwater optimization?

There is a way to determine through hardware, PCI Bus utilization. That's something software like SiSoft Sandra cannot do. It's around $100.00. PC System Moders use it to test performance issues. Dose it work? I have no idea. I'm just aware it exists.

On Our Toys page, currently #26:
http://www.buildorbuy.net/toys.html
RD2 PC Geiger - PCI Bus Multifunction Analyzer - Monitors PCI Bus clock speed and its activity status on your system. Has other features too.
http://www.vicstech.com/en/index.shtml

That's $100.00 or a M/B for $107.00. Problems is, new M/B also means new DDR RAM instead of PC133 RAM which also means more money.

I agree. Good article from Sweetwater Team. Everyone Should Read it! I like Aardvark too. Just want those Win2000 Drivers! I'm ready for another ProAudio interface but... Another Aardvark? Not until we see some drivers.

You have a separate physical HD for audio, not just a partition good! I'd also suggest a Promise ATA/100 Controller too! That you already have too on M/B? Setup Audio Drive on Promise ATA Controller - as Master Single. Place CD-ROMs elsewhere. Are your HD's ATA/100 or ATA/33, 66? It will make a difference. And always 7200 RPM or greater. IBM is best, WDC is also good.

We're taking a performance hit with Fat32. On Win2000 / NTFS a full HD will not slow down as it fills up. But you concerned about Bus Utilization. Your, ..."PCI efficiency..." in Win98SE - Are you running out of Resources? If so, sure you can tweak but only so far. Win9x Resource issues are always going to be there. How are you reading PCI efficiency? Through software?

Also, does Aardvark Q10 require a PCI Bus Master slot? I did not notice. I only remember them not using an IRQ on the 24/96.

NTFS Fragmentation is different than FAT32 although we still have to defrag. An NTFS partition does not slow down like a FAT32 partition will. GigaStudio is an exception to that defrag rule. Trade offs anyway we go.

I still say your CPU is fine. The chipset... And chipset drivers; HD ATA specs too. And we've both read everything from Aardvark too, but...

Hope some of this thinking out loud helps.

[Lrnzo]

Thanks again for you r response. Yes I am running the Promise ATA 100. All of my drivers are up to date including the 4IN1. Here are some more details. Pri Master IBM 30G 7200(software)
Pri Slave empty
Sec Master WD 60G 7200(audio)
Sec Slave empty these are ATA 100 w\proper ATA Cables
My other two IDE controllers are setup with CD\RW's in the same manner.
I have run 8 tracks of simultaneous audio without input signals but have only truly tested six at once with signal. So far so good.
The PCI efficiency reading is generated from the virtual Aardvark controll panel. I spoke with a Sweetwater tech. and he said audio dropouts were evident if the PCI monitor went below 50%. I'm not sure if he was relating this figure directly with the Q10 though.
I'm not aware of the "Bus master slot" but I know that the Q10 is using an IRQ. It was initially sharing with 4 other...devices? I forced an IRQ from the BIOS and now it is running solo. (thanks again Sweetwater guys)
If I don't notice significant problems after I load those tracks with an abundance of plugins and effects, than I will not toss the MB. If so than I will look into ABIT. As far as Win2000 goes Im at the mercy of Aardvark. Besides another OS change for me right now may put me over the edge! The price we pay for clean audio, editing and control is astounding!!I just...I just...I just want to play now.

[Gill_Boyd]

IMO - You're on the right track. Hope it all works!

From your perspective, and Sweetwater's - It's all about making music. Since I'm a musician who is now a computer consultant, those who come to us, "It's all about making a PC Work. And sometimes working Audio instead of everything else."

We've made PC's do what people want now for 10 years and we're still doing it! We just decided to start documenting what we were doing with the web sites.

I just wanna make music... I hear you, me too. Win2000 and ProAudio are both a long time coming and better be worth the wait! ;) I have an Aardvark 24/96 on WinMe. WinMe was a bad idea. Audio was good when everything worked. Finally made it all work - Whew! That was frustrating experience!

Started this treak on a PC with an Ensoniq EPS 16 Turbo Plus! The SCSI thing was so new in 1992 for Ensoniq. And M-Audio had the ONLY midi interface worth messing with. I think it was called Delta or M-32? An ISA card, remember those? Still have both. Getting nostalgic.

Never thought then we'd have the tools now. Can you imagine in 10 more years... Yea, makes my brain hurt. Let's just get to the music NOW!

Creating Audio on a PC really opened up in 1998. What a story since then!

Stay in touch and remember us when you're famous!

BTW:
Back on Topic, Bus master slots are 1-3 from the AGP slot and have Bus Prioritization. SCSI, FireWire and ATA Controllers are Bus master cards usually requiring a Bus master slot. 4 devices on 1 IRQ - IRQ Steering. Great when it works. IRQ Steering is now done 2 differrent ways. The relationship between chipset, Bios, M/B and O/S are very intertwined. We have a standard rule of thumb to follow on a PC until a rule changes.

I do not remember if the Arrdvark interface(s) require a Bus Master slot. Will have to check. Your Arrdvark Q10 shows occupying an IRQ but does it really use it? This feature was stated on the Arrdvark 24/96 and that seemed odd to me.

And you have your CD-ROM's setup for best performance when duping CD's. Some of Arrdvark's info is confusing, like CD-ROM's playing Digital Audio Extraction... contact the CD maker. No way! Use an application that plays Digital Audio (wav on mixer) instead of Analogue Audio (CD-ROM on Mixer). See? We get that one all the time.

One of our goals is to start documenting! It's not rocket science!

I was asked to write Tech Manuals once... for something I knew nothing about - Boring! This is a blast - Computer and Music!

[Gill_Boyd]

I'm the wrong person to ask since I'm not the typical User. Will try to keep it short. More later if you want. And I'm an Intel person from way back, but now...

AMD appeals to tweakers, overclockers and those who like to tinker. Just because you can do something odd does not make it a good idea like overclocking though. And, AMD offers a more "Bang For The Buck PC" than Intel beyond the MHz wars. It's a price / performance issue.

If you take a look @ the Specs, AMD has had a technically superior cpu. All that stuff in such a small package. I think people also like to root for the underdog. Competition is also healthy for the market place.

Whatever you think of a CPU and how great is it, remember, chipsets rule! ProAudio on a PC (IMO) got underway in 1998. Intel had the i440BX chipset. A lot of gear was based on using that chipset - Digi001. Then Intel went Rambus, then the MTH problem trying to use SDRAM. Those were both big issues if you had more than a few PC's to deal with.

AMD has had their share of chipset worries too. And still are. It's about time they get that part right and they are! Intel lost time since 1998 and they're creating a backup plan for their new cpu's in case those cpu's fail to sell. Intel had decided they were not able to corner the market on PC's with RAMBUS so now DDR is a good idea. Notice DDR RAM went up accordingly about the same time? Think what you like.

I also had the opportunity as a Meeting Planner for 3 years to learn a little about alot from Comdex, PC Expo etc and as a Contributing Editor for an Industry Organization. Business gose where it is wanted and stays where it is appreciated. Ever dealt with Intel? Ever tried to talk to Intel @ Comdex? Talk to AMD. Different attitude.

Since 1998, everything I've worked on from Intel to AMD as a PC Consultant has had its ups and downs. It's getting better. AMD is seemingly more focused. When you're #2, you try harder. Intel has had too many irons in the fire.

Here's what we're testing on PC Specs if interested:
http://www.buildorbuy.net/jwhinery/xls/ifiwere_2--.xls

Double the RAM for ProAudio + (2) HD's.

OK, you're doing web design... Q: Win2000 or Win98SE... Or MAC? See with us, we make PC's do what people want. They've already decided a PC. And no way with what I know and who I know would I go with a Ready Built Box. Tell us what you want to do and we'll show you how. On AMD these are the issues and same for Intel.

Ever made your own Bass Reflex cabinet? Or make your own bass rig? I have a cousin who use to make custom banjos. I've made drums before to understand the process. That was a long time ago.

Now, it's PC's and Audio. Audio on a PC really tests a system to show what it & you can do while having fun. In the end, it's all about the music. Besides everything is going digital. Everything will be going to PC's. Movies are going digital.

First time I met SF @ The Beach - Comdex, none of the people working with me would go. They were not musicians and were not intersted in SF Acid nor meeting Joe Walsh. It's all about the music and AMD Athlons do the job as far as I can tell from our informal tests!

Too much info? I digressed. Our problem, while people want "Bang For The Buck," when they see a deal, they think that's it! Then they get some junk @ Fry's that was cheap and try to make it work. OK, this is how it is... Do this, and it will! We don't change people's minds, we help them to make informed decisions.

Besides, I also have the luxury of working with a high ranking retired AMD emplyee. He knows more than I could ever hope to fill a thimble with. We love to build PC's and help others doing the same. But that's another story. I digressed again.

Hope some of that helps. If you have some specifics, let me know. We have a weekly live Technology Forum with 100 SOHO types. I'll be happy to ask them whatever you like and report back. THat's part of what started our web sites - documenting what we're doing.

I like Sweetwater and know helping you guys will help us too. Thanks for asking.

[AcousticPro]

Some good discussion here and it's definitely true that Chipsets have a lot to do with the performance. A good chip is a good thing, but Drivers are a bigger part in my mind. Hardware is just dummy stuff that communicates only if it has the correct drivers. Of course better hardware will get more out of a good driver.

[Gill_Boyd]

True, Drivers count, when we get to that point. Building a Platform starts from the ground up. Or put another way, "A Chain is Only as Strong as the Weakest Link. "

Chipsets rule & so do the drivers interacting with those chipsets. The O/S counts too. And so do those drivers as they interact with hardware. In 1998, sound card chipsets were a big deal as were M/B chipsets.

Good WDM, ASIO & GSIF can really make a difference on a PC. Who knows what we'll see with MLAN. It looks good for data dumping. Drivers...

Everything is going Digital. Once there, we can keep our Data always new and with no degradation over time.

Instead of Remastering analogue, we'll be remixing digital bounced tracks.

The two go hand in hand. We have to have both. And hopefully, our experience & research will bear that out. The only way to know this technology is to experience it. And that's what you guys with Sweetwater do on a daily basis. We make PC's work. I'm finding, the more we learn, the less I realize I know.

Look @ Aardvark, great hardware... vxd drivers then, ok, WDM drivers now? Who has the best gear for making music with PC's? Depends upon your criteria & specs. What about M-Audio? You have to understand what they have and know if what you have can interface with what they're offering. Buy more gear? Why? This can drastically affect your total price if you do not achieve a total solution. Sure M-Audio drivers are responsive! What other gear do you have to buy? Not a total solution.

With others, does your Motorola DSP hiccup with that M/B chipset? Aardvark, IMO, has great specs and a great feature set for a total solution, but WDM / GSIF drivers... Without it, we're all hosed and searching for soemthing else! And when we find that something else, we'll stay there as long as the drivers are there!

Same as setting up a job to do Sound Reinforcement... Mixer, Snake, Mics, Amps, Speakers... Monitor feeds, more to it than that! And Do you have EXTRA of everything? The Music - The Show Runs, we're live or we're DOA! PC's are becoming more reliable to handle this with automation. Like you said, drivers!

This is definitely easier now on PC, it's just not where we'd like it to be yet. We need our drivers Aardvark!

BTW:
Just noticed this post did NOT end up where it was suppose to be... odd.

[AcousticPro]

http://216.239.35.120/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.tecchannel.de/hardware/893/index.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dvia%2Bkt333%2Bpci%2Btecchannel%26hl%3 Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF8%26oe%3DUTF8

[Gill_Boyd]

Gents,
Interesting comments regarding CPU's. As far as a PC is concerned, it's all about Chipsets. Thanks Jeff for those valuable links. Great tool.

An Audio PC is a different matter. Still, Chipsets Rule! Yes we can make an AMD CPU PC work nicely. Intel for the most part IS usually easier to configure. Not always. We have choices. Which is better?

Are you a Computer User or a Musician? Yes, it's always ALL about the Music IF you're a working musician. Some of us, due to our choices, also have other interests which pay the bills even though we think of ourselves as Musicians.

IMO: Intel has always lead the pack, now they follow. And that's just an opinion. Even though I consider myself a musician, I'm a Consultant. My Associates and I focus on PC's. We teach people how to Build PC's. Am I rich & famous because of that fact? No. Do I enjoy it? Yes. Am I helping people to learn, I sincerely hope so. Are there problems with PC's? Yes. Will we stop using them? Doubtful.

We can learn to appreciate each others perspective on the Technology. We each have a different experience to share. Enjoy!

Gill Boyd

[TeeCee]

Jeff:
They discuss issues and tecChannel refers to another article. The one I was originally looking at. They tested the KT133A with an Athlon. No one should be buying this chipset right now. I built a machine in December and I used the KT266A. And I'll continue to argue that this bandwidth far exceeds the needs of PC-DAWs. And the floating point performance of an Athlon is just too good for me to ignore.

If we use a PCI based hard drive solution, we don't rely on burst rates, we rely on continuous streams of data. Seek time on a hard drive begins to be more important than the disks transfer rate when considering that when modern IDE hard drives push over 20 MB/s reading thier slowest, outer tracks. If you are playing and recording 8 tracks of audio, that's something like 4.6 MB/s for the audio interface. Say it's 7 MB/s with overhead (because I don't know enough of the clock details to show it being more efficient). Add 32 tracks being streamed off of your hard drive to be mixed into those 8 channel of audio output. With the same inefficiencies, that's 21 MB/s total. We are no where near even the 64 MB/s the VIA P4 chip set did. And if I were building an Intel box, I would probably buy an Intel chip set. I'm currently in the AMD/VIA camp. Until they just can't hang

[AcousticPro]

I would tend to agree with your marks in general, obviously with the already stated disclaimer that it depends on how you are using the system whether it will work for you. Many people who may not have much audio engineering experience are getting into cards such as the UAD1 which will put a further tax on the bus that I have found more problematic than the situations you mentioned. So in general I would agree that your situation exceeds many applications as you have suggested and I agree the newer floating point Athlon processors are very good and VIA is better in its functionality with those systems. I have found Athlon to be a "tweakers" processor for guys like you and I who know audio though and so my fear of VIA chipsets comes from the every day person using them in Intel systems where they tend not to perform the same. Any other information you have would be appreciated as well. Thanks again!

[TeeCee]

Just for the record, I waited to upgrade until I finally did a remix in Acid that used 100% CPU during playback for over a minute straight, where any tweak to the song would cause skips. I was using a Celeron 300a@450 MHz. Don't get the wrong idea from that. I strongly recommend against over clocking a CPU used for audio. Definitely do not plan your future on the overclockability of a CPU.

When I finally upgraded (in December), I upgraded to my Athlon XP 1600+ with a VIA KT266a chip set. I waited until after the dust about the KT133a issues settled. Many Sound Blaster users had issues with poor audio performance and that chip set. I did not want to have to manually adjust things like PCI latency timers and SDRAM clocks to get what I expected out of my PC. I didn't have to. My system worked, my drivers installed, I thought I was dreaming.

As much of a tweak head as I can be, I absolutely believe that your Audio PC has to work when you want it to (not just when you need it to or when it feels like it). It's like a musical instrument. If you can walk into your "studio", pick up your axe, horn, whatever, and jam/blow/strum, you will. If you have to pull it and associated equipment out and plug it in, you might. When you get around to it.

I have another system with an AMD 761 northbridge and VIA 686B south bridge which I also have had no problems with. This PC serves as my soft sampler/synth box.

I know you've spent some time with other chip sets, and I feel your pain. I do want to know about specific cases involving the KT266a or and the KT333a as I still recomend the KT266a and will probably recommend the KT333a. I don't want to recommend these chip sets if people are having trouble with them. So, I wopuld appreciate it if you send any information you come across my way.

[Gill_Boyd]

Jeff,
I agree with you - Anyone going Intel should stick with an Intel Chipset. IF going AMD, our preference pick for now is Via even with the problems. AMD makes a great CPU, they just need a better Chipset. Tweak? I do not define Tweak, for my as trying tricks. Whatever the CPU is rated, that's how we run it. No pushing beyond specs. Audio does all the pushing we're interested in!

As for Via Chipsets - We've used them all. We're current Building with the newest KT333 yet we still advocate the slower PC2100 DDR RAM instead of faster DDR333 RAM. Why? Not all DDR333 is approved yet. DDR333 requires 2 sticks installed, not three! It's in the Giga-Byte M/B Manuals!

And whatever ANYONE uses for RAM - GET BRAND NAME! Not Generic!!! Keep those Chipset drivers current too!

I'm running Tascam GigaStudio 2.5, SF Acid Pro, SF Sound Forge 5.0, Sonar XL 2 and others on Athlon XP 1700 with Via KT266a Chipset. Problems? Not unless I create them! ;)

Even Win 2000 can be crashed if you really want to! Not my thing though.

Gill Boyd